Star Wars FORCE

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Ok, Star Wars is back, but what about that mysterious force that is connecting all the movies in the series (besides two silly looking robots).

So what is your opinion about FORCE? Is it a bit owerpowered in first two (2nd mainly) movies?
/me thinks maybe

What is the background of it? They gave that (stupid) explanation in Ep1 but i dont buy that, it sounds weird and not convincing.

Did lucas forgot what he thought of it in the first place?

Why Lucas didnt explain the dark side in the first or 2nd part better? Ok it should be mysterious, but where did that main nemesis came from (that dark sithious? or what is his name)

And is it in all of us, but it is stronger or awakened in some?

And why there isnt any female Jedi Knights? How could Leia than become the very last jedi if Luke "Lars" (good one) couldnt make it?

 

Grr.... we already had 3 Starwars-topics.... why another one.... can you please ask your question again in one of the other topics?

/me votes for a special movie-forum.. or movie and booktalk...

[This message has been edited by Headbanger (edited May 23, 2002).]

 

Why are you so angry, if this bothered you so much, you just needed to look in other topics, and yes there is 3 other but im interested in force only. (I think it is that "something" that Ep1 and possibly 2 are missing)

Sorry if this topic disturbed you!

 

See what happens?!?! Fear, Anger, Aggression, and Suffering...All tools of the Dark Side, they are...Headbanger, you must learn Patience...Young padawan.

I liked the Force much better when it was a mystical thing, an unknown force, penetrating all things...Instead of the little bugs hitching a ride on my cells whispering in my mind!!!

But then again, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no substitute for a good blaster at your side, kid! There's no all-powerful force guiding my destiny.

 

What do you mean overpowered in the first two? The force was hardly used in the first at all (in comparison with the other movies), and in the second the only 'overpowered' parts were Yoda lifting an X-Wing from the swamp, and Vader throwing a lot of objects at Luke. Emperor Palpatine and his nifty lightning attack beats all that hands down.

 

Personally, I liked Vader snuffing out all the incompident losers in Empire. This really made Vader the cosmic bad ass. It seems that the force was used in Empire a lot more than the other two combined, and there was no mention of Midiclorines (or whatever). It was just there, and Jedi knew how to use it. He should have left it that way.

 

I agree with Sir Bel, that whole explanation about "midi-chlorians" (or some such) was very lame. As if they couldn't come up with a better explanation. (They do better in FR with the mysterious "Weave" used to explain magic)
PS-There ARE female Jedi, look closely at Ep 1 and you'll see there's two or three on the Council! Pay close attention to the female of Yoda's species.

[This message has been edited by Faerus Stoneslammer (edited May 23, 2002).]

 

christopher_c_pitzer has it right. Vader choking all the Imperial generals over the view screen and all as cool. I may be miss read but I think they mean the first two - i.e. E1 and E2. The jedi flying at the start of E1 and Yoda in E2. The is use a lot in ANH and ESB but beside Vader there are more suddle things. The jedi mind trick, better aim to destroy the Death Star, moving a few boxes or a light saber.

And Sir Bel, I love the Solo quote!

 

I don't get what the fuss about the midi-chlorians is all about. To me it appears to be a very good explanation to make that "force" more realistic, bound into the laws of physics somehow. There's still plenty of mysticism left for everyone's own imagination.

As for force being overpowered in the first 2 movies, I take you're talking about in-movie chronologial order which would mean the first 2 *new* movies. As in EP 1 & 2. Agreed, force is much stronger there than in episodes 4, 5 and 6. But you have to understand how old they are.

Besides Obi Wan had probably not trained his force for a long time when he first met Luke. Vader in the other hand had become much weaker due to what happens to him in EP3. And yoda + emperor are never really seen in any battle. Also, in the beginning of The Return of the Jedi, Luke is more like a padawan than a Jedi. Compare the time he's had to train to the Jedi in SW1/2. Even Anakin with his supreme abilities had trained for 10 full years in a row before the time of episode 2. And he still wasn't that good.

There's a logical explanation to everything you see.

And btw, check EP2. You'll see there are plenty of female Jedi fighting alongside with Obi Wan, Anakin and Windu.

SW kicks ass!

[This message has been edited by Forashi (edited May 23, 2002).]

 

Wow, if you say that there are femknights in Ep2 than i belive you, me and my friends missed them.

About that overpovered thingie, i meant Ep1 and Ep2 as not the old movies from 70's and 80's (I prefer to this question as Final Fantasy syndrome )

But i read all posts from above and i got idea: jedis mentioned in sveral occasions that they feel "disturbance in the force", maybe tey are connected to each other so when "light" side was almost annihilated later, they were weaker because "light" side was weaker than "dark" (i got idea from those kids thingie in Ep2)?

PS I love to think about something that is not worth thinking! Obviously.

 

the force and midichlorians: the 'fuss' has little to do with physics!

check out... http://www.theforce.net/midichlorians/

the article is definitely worth reading and has some very interesting ideas, but is inaccurate on several key points, partly due to it's basis on the scientific understanding of lucas himself, which is somewhat flawed. here is a brief explanation (and corrections) by an evolutionary biologist (me!)...

midichlorians are used in the star wars universe as a euphemism for mitochondria, the so-called 'powerhouses' of cellular life, transducing energy (chemicals) into forms that organisms can use. it is perfectly conceivable (in a sci-fi framework) that these midichlorians would produce 'the force' as a by-product of their biochemical metabolism (though how this would work, i'm not so sure!)

mitochondria are probably the descendants of primitive bacteria, acquired by 'endosymbiosis' (ancient cells with a nucleus engulfed ('ate') bacteria that were able to carry-out respiration -Margulis, who based her ideas upon those of Mereschkowsky).

in contrast to what lucas claims, mitochondria have little to do with the origin of life and only indirectly contribute to mitosis (cell division). (ignore theforce.net's over-simplified explanation of prions, it isn't relevant to the article!)

mitochondria are exploited by their host cells, so it is unlikely that the initial relationship was one of 'infection' (intracellular parasitism). also ignore theforce.net's statement on 'red queen theory'- which should actually be a commentary on the constant co-evolutionary 'arms race' between hosts and parasites (not adaptation to envronments, which is natural/positive selection).

physicists do indeed believe that there are more than three dimensions (remember that the 'forth dimension' -time- is simply an artificial construct that allows organisms with learning capabilities to organise their lifecycles). however, 'superstrings' are not the be-all and end-all of a mysterious 'force' that glues the universe(s) together. our universe may actually be a 'brane' (too much info to do justice in an article or post!).

note that mitochondria are maternally-inherited, i.e. luke should not be strong in the force just because anakin is. high midichlorians counts may predispose a person to 'high force', but will not confer that power upon them unless they've been trained in how to use that power (what the article describes as being 'in sync').

the fundamental problem with relating 'the force' to a 'scientific' explanation is that the link between the two is based on correlation, and is lacking causation. in other words, how does a 'force' created by degenerate micro-organisms allow jedi to move objects, communicate by telepathy, etc?!

there're plenty of other points in the article that the multitude of scientists on these boards will comment on!

remember kids: science-fiction!

 

Umm...I'm sure you realize that Star Wars is a SCIENCE FICTION story. What's the point in making something fantastical, realistic? I'm sure if they were going for realism they wouldn't have used a Force at all. And how do midi-chlorians explain the spirits of the dead walking around? I don't think there's many midi-chlorians in THEIR blood. Although, I'm sure you could come up with some good arguments against these feeble thoughts.

 

There are female Jedis, at least in EII. Check them out in the big battle in the arena. Swingin' saber like a pro.

 

Heres all the Female Jedies that can be seen in Episode II:

Aayla Secura - Jedi Padawan, Twi'lek (Hot)

Adi Gallia - Jedi Master

Bultar Swan - Jedi

Shaak Ti - Jedi Knight

Luminari Unduli - Jedi Master

Barriss Offee - Jedi Padawan

As you can see theres quite a few.

[This message has been edited by Frog (edited May 24, 2002).]

 

Nice one "the god". This may go offtopic, but since you're more focused on the biology than I am (as a psychology student -trying to be at least ), do you have any info as to the origin of the mitochondria?

The most common information about mithocondria is as you said (I think), their DNA structure is like that of a bacteria. Now I don't remember exactly what, but there was something about mithocondrias DNA that differs from any other known bacteria so far. Just checked it from my books but couldn't find it. I was also about to mention that it is extremely LIKELY that you inherit your mithocondria from you mother, not completely certain and verified. Too bad most of the genetic mapping (or whatever in english, where you attempt to find out about inherited diseases and such) relies upon this, so I guess it'd have to be pretty close at least to have worked so far. Lot of if there, but what I'm saying is: There's still enough theoretical and unverified information about mithocondria to allow George Lucas his mistakes, no?

Think the guy's just played too much Parasite Eve or something though.

Don't challenge me into some stupid bargain over which has more info on this. I'd lose it outright, I admit.

As for you Faerun Stoneslammer. I never did claim that Starwars should be realistic. I just don't understand that "on/off" switch you ppl keep thinking about. Just adding a bit of imaginative realism into the saga won't destroy it or anything.

[Edit:] Oh and one more thing for the both of you. I'm quite sure nobody claimed that the midichlorians would be the source of the force. They merely marked the consentration points of the force. Meanig, the force is still that mystical magical otherwordly energy that flows through all things. Not just biological creatures or something. A good attempt to explain why the force is strong with the Skywalkers as said in EP 4,5 or 6. Otherwise they'd have to explain it with how the force would relate to the Skywalker family spirit or something (that might actually be pretty good ).

[This message has been edited by Forashi (edited May 24, 2002).]

 

I would go so far as to says that midi-cloreans can be receptors to the force. The energy field that binds the galaxy together. And that is it. No more "explaining" especially molecular explanations. I think both the energy field and and the midi-cloreans could exist perfectly together in the concept of "the force". Hence it seems I utterly disagree with the auther of the article and probably numerous of his sources. Midi-cloreans could be receptors and transmitters of the enrgy fields that surrounds us. The more aware a person in that universe is of his symbiotic counterpart and the more he has of them, the stronger he is with the force. A simple idea, that doesn't walk into the path of scientists. A dark path that is...

I don't think Lucas ditched his old concept from the 80-ties. He added on to it. A little too much in the scientific department though, for my likings.

 

Exactly. Force is still an independent energy.

 

Further to the gods point above, I had to write a dissertation on "The Evolution of Mutualisms" for my degree (Biology). I included midichlorions as an example (and had a long exerpt from the film as my introduction), cos of the bit in TPM when Qui Gon explains to Annakin about what they are [in fact, the exact same one as in the link above ].

Perhaps I shouldn't have, cos I got a really crap mark...


PS I doubt whether Lucas has even heard of mitochondria, let alone studied them...

Forashi - I believe that it is as certain as any scientific theory can be that mitochondria are maternally inherited. It stems from fertilisation, no paternaly mitochondria enter the female egg - which is packed full of them (all of which are maternal).

This has been used, interestingly, to demonstrate the "Eve" theory, where it was shown that a large no. of the people on earth (60%? - can;t remember) descended from a single woman, cos they all shared some of the corret mitochondrial DNA

[This message has been edited by Christopher_Lee (edited May 24, 2002).]

 

Archangel - I liked your explanation of the Force/Midiclorian relationship! Good Job!!! After taking a look at it from that angle...I can handle it!

 

force = mass x acceleration


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