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Stolen Honor

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by The Great Snook, Oct 29, 2004.

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  1. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    [​IMG] I was forwarded this link. This is the on-line version of the anti-Kerry Stolen Honor Video that was supposed to be broadcast on T.V., but now may have been blocked.

    I have not seen it (since I'm at work and can't spend 45 minutes watching a movie) so watch it at your own political risk.

    I am the Great Snook and I approve this message.
     
    The Great Snook, Oct 29, 2004
    #1
  2. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Tell you what ... I'll watch Stolen Honor, which is essentially a feature-length Swift Boat Veterans for Truth smear ad (whose members have been completely discredited and exposed as liars), if you watch Going Upriver. Is it a deal?
     
    Death Rabbit, Oct 29, 2004
    #2
  3. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    It's basically a pro-Vietnam war propaganda flick exposing Kerry's "treachery" and "treason" for daring to speak of the atrocities also commited by the US soldiers there, which, of course, he completely made up. Never happened. No siree, Bob! Maybe KERRY did those terrible deeds, and the Vietnamese who were sadistic torturers and barbarians certainly did, but not the holy US army!

    Then it goes on a crusade against the anti-war activists, spitting all over Jane Fonda and other celebrities who participated, or rather "conspired" in any protests against the war. Then it quite literally says that Kerry branded all war veterans as criminals, demons, murderers and vilified them in his made-up "fantasies", and that pretty much everything said by the anti-war protesters was made up, a lie, usually on the spot, and that most of the supposed war veterans who spoke against the war were actually frauds who hadn't been in Vietnam at all. Kerry, they say, lied about everything in his testimony. "Where in the world is his loyalty to the people in the military?", one of the vets "interviewed" asks angrily.

    It then goes on to say Kerry's lies were designed to shock America and fuel his personal political ambitions.

    They actually come to a point where one vet admits, with considerable effort (and even a half-denial in the same sentence) one massacre in Vietnam, but that the guy who did it was found out and tried, and the world was a happy place ever since. This was, of course, an isolated indicent, the only one even, where ONE man commited the horrible deeds, and everyone else outright refused to have anything to do with it.

    The narrator throughout the propaganda movie skillfully speculates about what Kerry thought and intended, but, to an unobservant watcher/listener makes it all sound as if Kerry actually said those things which the narrator made up. He goes on to blame Kerry for every war movie made after the end of the war (where, of course, any wrongdoing on the part of the US army is a horrible lie), that they were all made based on Kerry's lies, "filled the pockets of Hollywood producers", etc.

    "We just don't do that, we're Americans", is the quote of another war vet (in regards to any crimes commited by them). He points out that Kerry actually said at some point that he did those horrible things - so HE'S a war criminal! "He abandoned his comrades!" says another.

    Then, near the end, for the first time they have a woman speaking, a wife of one of the vets "interviewed", who basically says that she knew the character of her husband and many of the men over there and that they couldn't ever have done any of those atrocities, again, pretty much on the premise that Americans were somehow physically uncapable of it. "We were there to help those people, and I believe that with every fibre of my being" are her last words. Then it shows another wife, denying any wrongdoing even more fervently: "They were good men, who, because of Kerry's testimony, came back spit on!".

    Then the narrator comes up again, blaming Kerry for the extended imprisonment and deaths of all the POWs "who might have otherwise survived", if it weren't for his blasphemous lies.

    In short, the movie pretty much puts Kerry (and Jane Fonda) forward as the only people responsible for the extended imprisonment of all the war vets in the movie, and deaths of countless others, and that he is personally responsible for the war to have gone on for 2 years longer than necessary.

    Then the spotlight goes back to the vets, who damand from him that he apologize for all the lies that he spread about the atrocities commited in Vietnam, "it just wasn't so", he lied about it all, etc. He should admit that he did it all to get attention, for political gain, etc. "He's turned his back on all of us", etc. Then it goes on to give some air time to all of those who think there's nothing Kerry can do to apologize any more.

    For the final strike, they wheel in a war vet with enough medals and decorations to break your back, to basically sum up everything said before and reinforce it with his chest full of medals. At the point he uttered the word "propaganda" I actually started laughing about the absurdity of anyone in this 100% propaganda flick calling anything else propaganda. "This man commited and act of treason, he lied, he besmirched our name, he did it for his own self-interest (added more silently, as an afterthought, as if he just remembered he was told to include this one), and now he wants us to forget..."

    Then the narrator comes up again, repeating the same thing for about the 5th time, and spitting on Apocalypse Now (for the second time) as a movie "which reflects John Kerry's views of the murderous American", tells how "one man drowned the hopes of thousands etc."

    The whole thing ends with a "Special Thanks to the Pennsylvania Veterans who Sponsored this Documentary." and a couple more thank-yous.

    So, there you have it, a summary of the entire 42 minutes. Propaganda at its finest. *I* should be given a medal for actually sitting through this crap and providing a summary.

    Seeing all those war vets who had suffered torture themselves, degrade themselves with such obvious lying and self-denial, really made me feel sad for them.
     
    Taluntain, Oct 29, 2004
    #3
  4. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Yikes, you actually took the time to watch it? Are you becoming as obsessed with American politics as Ragusa Tal? ;)
     
    Blackthorne TA, Oct 29, 2004
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  5. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    The thought had crossed my mind more than once, let me tell you that... The only consolation to me is that the people who will read what I wrote won't need to waste 42 minutes of their life seeing it themselves.
     
    Taluntain, Oct 29, 2004
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  6. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Historical revisionist seems to have stuck their fangs into the Vietnam war. This is not the first place I have seen that. If these revisionist were correct then Americans are the only soldiers in the history of warfare not to committ any atrocities. I find that hard to believe. However, just as not every German soldier gassed jews and put civilians in massgraves so did not every American torch villages, raped or smashed baby heads, but it happened, just as it does in every war.
     
    joacqin, Oct 29, 2004
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  7. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    /me gives Tal a medal, engraved as follows:

    For meritorious service above and beyond the call of duty. And for being enough of a dumbass to watch it in the first place.

    :p

    And the time savings was only 40 minutes - 42 minutes, less the 2 minutes it took me to read the summary. :p
     
    Splunge, Oct 29, 2004
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  8. Rednik Gems: 21/31
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    Tal, you've done it again. I'm glad I didn't have to download that crap.
     
    Rednik, Oct 29, 2004
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  9. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    For comparison sake I would love to see Tal's synopsis of Farenheit 911. Bwahh haaa haaa
     
    The Great Snook, Oct 30, 2004
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  10. Ankiseth Vanir Gems: 3/31
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    Snook, you should apologize for posting this already-debunked tripe and wasting everyone's time.
     
    Ankiseth Vanir, Oct 30, 2004
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  11. Register Gems: 29/31
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    TGS - Why, since Tal is a Kerry-supporter, he must attack the Republican lies.

    But you are a Bush-supporter, so you should do it instead.

    Of course, have you seen it? At all? If not, don't blame it on that you don't want to give Moore the money, instead, download it. He have approved all downloads and copies of the movie.

    And Snook, do you actually believe that no large amount of atrocies(sp?) were made by the Americans in Vietnam? :bs:
     
    Register, Oct 31, 2004
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  12. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    First of all I'm not a Bush supporter. I'm a part of the anti-hypocrisy division.

    Ankiseth mentions the "debunking" of Stolen Honor and yet I'm not convinced I've seen any compelling evidence "Debunking" anything. I've seen Pro-Kerry supporters jump up and down and scream a lot. Now it is true that I've seen credible people with different positions, but I do not believe the SBV stories and positions have been completely invalidated.

    Now on the other hand I see plenty of people who treat F911 as fact. This when the entire picture was made by a person with an existing track record of exagerration and innuendo in his "documentaries". I'm troubled by this. Moore is in essence given a free pass, the counter point is treated as lying crackpots (see above post assuming Stolen Honor must be crap).

    Do I believe that there were no atrocities committed in Viet-Nam. No, that would be a ridiculous position to take, it was after all a war and I don't expect people to behave in a civilized manner when people are trying to kill them. However, Kerry's words are a matter of record. What he did was a betrayal of his fellow soldiers that were still in harm's way. There is no getting around that.

    I posted about this in a different thread. The rabid sides of both parties are unreachable as nothing will change their positions or minds. The poor people stuck in the middle (like myself) have to keep an open mind and try to navigate through all of the BS on both sides. Here in the Alley IMO the rabid right has basically been banished or shouted down to irrelevance. To me, that isn't exactly conducive to a debate of the issues. It has forced me at times to post positions, I may not exactly agree with in order to show the other side of an issue.

    Lastly, no one should ever have to apoligize for having or expressing an opinion.
     
    The Great Snook, Oct 31, 2004
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  13. Dorion Blackstar Gems: 7/31
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    I know this is off topic but I had to respond to the comment about the Rabid Right being shouted down here in the alley.I dont post much but I have been coming here for close to around two years or so now and have never seen anything ( with very few exceptions here)that would warrent anyone feeling as if they could no longer post here.You summed it up in youre last sentence ,it is just an opinion.If the Rabid Right cannot handle people having opinions that differ from theirs then that is there promblem.
    What people post here ,it is just that,an opinion nothing more ,nothing less.ITs a shame some people have fled the boards ,even if I don't agree with there outlook it is nice to see how other people view the world.
     
    Dorion Blackstar, Oct 31, 2004
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  14. Dendri Gems: 20/31
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    I dont think this is true, Snook. The Kerry-supporters have been fair in most of the debates even though being the majority here. At worst they responded in kind. And you will have to understand that someone who has the gall to declare his nation the greatest of all on an international board like this will get little to no backing from others. If some have left then only because Bush made their political position hard to defend. ;)

    This I can understand. Too bad the political atmosphere in the US has come to a point where the admittance of a weakness or any sort of problem (like the developement in Iraq) has become utterly impossible. Where a change of mind is interpreted as a flaw of one's character. It will turn all into apologists. No wonder we hear Bush going on about how good it was to attack Iraq.
     
    Dendri, Oct 31, 2004
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  15. Pac man Gems: 25/31
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    Personally i don't see anything wrong in speaking out loud that you think your country is the greatest in the world. Especially not if by all it's achievements, it's the simple truth. If an American is proud on what his country achieved, in all sorts of ways, by all means, sing it out loud. A little patriotism never hurt anyone.
     
    Pac man, Oct 31, 2004
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  16. Ziad

    Ziad I speak in rebuses Veteran

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    The problem is when the patriotism starts twisting things. Next thing you know, the not-so-glorious achievements are either eraser from history (if you don't see it in a history book, it never happened!), or facts are twisted so that the achivement suddenly does become glorious.

    There's a fine line between patriotism and propaganda, and as time passes I think the line is becoming thinner and thinner, as patriotism becomes more and more propaganda, and any critiquing of the propaganda is labelled as anti-patriotism and treason. THAT is dangerous. Especially when the country in question labels itself as the defender of freedom and free speech.

    By the way, before anyone jumps on me, the country in question does not have to be the USA. Many, many countries, both in the develped world and in the 3rd world, do this. And in both cases, it's an unhealthy practice. But, the more powerful the country is, the more effect this attitude has on other countries too.
     
    Ziad, Oct 31, 2004
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  17. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Patriotism have actually hurt quite a lot of people. It is the fuel behind every war. If your people dont feel patriotism it is damn hard to convince them to march away and kill them other buggers on the other side of the mountain. How do you think the nations of Europe convinced their populations to support WWI and send their sons and husbands to die in the trenches if not for patriotism? If we manage to curb that emotion our leaders can squabble as much as they like but they only way the would get into to turn violent would be if they fought each other alone.

    The old lie lives still: Dulce et decorum est, Pro patria mori.
     
    joacqin, Oct 31, 2004
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  18. Dendri Gems: 20/31
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    Personally, I prefer humility... might be a german thing though. Especially if there are not-so-glorious (to quote Ziad) achivements of the past to be considered.
    Then again, being offended by this "little patriotism" might be a question of self-esteem. You know, I greatly appreciate the Netherlands for its liberal lifestyle. To a degree that I almost envy you. ;) I dont see what makes you in any way inferior to any other nation. Lack of military power? Hardly. Lesser wealth? Greatness has nothing to do with that.
     
    Dendri, Oct 31, 2004
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  19. Pac man Gems: 25/31
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    Dendri, i don't think modesty is a typical German feat (does Deutschland uber alles ring a bell ? :D ). And besides, Germany has plenty of reasons to be proud, i'v never been in a cleaner country all my life, people are hard workers, and whatever German products you mention, they are top of the bill (electronics, cars, etc...). Not to mention Germany's achievements in Sports, no other European nation has such a status.

    Last but not least, Germany is full of hot chicks. :D

    So be proud and say it out loud. ;)
     
    Pac man, Oct 31, 2004
    #19
  20. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Wow, you must be truly starved for women if you find German chicks hot Pac Man. :p
     
    joacqin, Oct 31, 2004
    #20
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