Tenser's Transformation bugs?

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This is partly ToB related but I guess it's mainly a SoA issue...

Well this has been bother me quite some time now. In Tenser's Transformation casting description it disables mage spells. However in actuality it disable cleric spells too. That's okay for me. But the problem is that it disables all special abilities, including fighter ones. I wonder if it's a bug. It first begin to annoy me after I found out that after Tenser my Kensai/Mage can't use Kai. Okay, the extra hitpoints and AC is not a big deal. So I kinda bear with it. However since recently I experiment with Thief/Mage it starts to bother me a lot that I can't use assassionation after Tenser (which would totally rock). So the only way to achieve this now is to cast a contingency to cast Tenser at seeing enemy, and then use assassination just after contingency is cast and just before Tenser is triggered.

So I wonder do you think this effect of Tenser is intentional or just some design over-sight? It doesn't really make much sense as things currently work...

 

I'm thinking that the design is more or less an over-sight to some extent. A Kensai/Mage should be able to use a Kai ability realistically. Same goes for assassination.

And this is ToB-related, so it really should go into that forum, even if only covers a minor part of it.

 

Well, the problem is totally inside SoA, just my research into it is a bit ToB-related, so I think this topic, "Tenser's Transformation Bug", is totally within SoA...

Anyway isn't there some kind of custom fix for this? I mean, I see absolutely no reason why you can't change into Slayer after this transformation, you can even change into Slayer (or use any your special ability) after you turn into a Fire Elemental (if you are a Druid), or Shapechange into a Mind Flayer or Great Troll! I'd say those are more radical transformations than Tenser...

 

There is no "fix" and there is no bug. It is by design and changing it wounln't be a fix but a cheat.

 

Just think it doesn't make much sense. It doesn't tell you this in either the spell description nor the casting description. It says "mage spell disabled". When I wear Full Plate Mail it also says "mage spell disabled", but I can use whatever special abilities I want. And when I change into a Mind Flayer I can still use Kai. After I change into a Werewolf I can still change into Slayer. You can't do anything after Tenser just don't make sense, especially there are numerous ways to work around it. Like casting Tenser with a contingency or spelltrigger.

So it's either a bug in the game or a bug in the description, or a bug in that you are able to work around it so easily.

As I said, I think as things work now, it just don't make much sense. It just makes some tactics more tedious. Like I will just dispel the Tenser with my other mage when my Thief/Mage encounter some boss then cast contingency-tenser and then assassination. Is that cheating? Is that exploiting a bug in the game?

And I don't consider "fixing" some obvious design oversight or things don't make sense as cheating. As there are many fixes in the Baldurdash site, ie. the Tears of Bhaal stat fix, the mage HLA for F/M/T fix, etc. etc. I don't consider them cheating.

[ September 14, 2002, 14:29: Message edited by: alighter ]

 

Baldurdash?

I think he had that Tenser's "fix" included until Bioware confirmed that there is no bug just the spell description omission.

[EDIT]
I was right. Go on the link below and find the word "Tenser".

http://members.rogers.com/mrkevvy/buglist.html

[ September 14, 2002, 14:34: Message edited by: Extremist ]

 

Hmm... thanks... however still it doesn't make much sense, unless they add some descriptions explaining this weird effect... also as it is now, it doesn't affect much except maybe for F/M/T, who'll get other effects dispelled along with Tenser, but not the Chain Contingency to set them back up... A bit strange design decision IMHO.

PS: Oh, and another little thing. While spellcasting, thieving skills, etc. etc. got disabled, the icons are greyed out. Not for the special ability icon in Tenser. You can still choose your special abilities, choose to set trap and your character will walk to the designated position but do nothing. Shouldn't they just grey out the special ability icon or something? If the design is intentional, this is something they shouldn't have overlooked IMHO...

[ September 15, 2002, 10:55: Message edited by: alighter ]

 

Alright, as Extremist said, this is not a bug, the spell should work the way it does. Whenever you transform, using the spell, your character is considered to be whatever he transforms into. Since the fighter gnoll is not a thief, you will not have thieving abilities (this applies to any of the other forms as well). Since the form you transform into is not a mage, you can't use your mage abilities until you turn back into one.

You can't turn into a mind flayer using Tenser's Transformation. That requires the 9th level spell Shapechange.

 

The problem is, I can use whatever special ability with a Shapechange spell, but not with Tenser's Transformation. I can shapechange to a Mind Flayer, Golem, Troll, and use whatever special abilitis I want. Howevr not with Tenser. Also if I use Shapechange and thenactivate Tenser with a spelltrigger or something, I'm stuck with the current form and cannot change to another or change back, since the special abilities are unavailable after Tenser.

And as I said, at least they can be a bit more specific and provide better description in Tenser's description, and maybe grey out the special ability icon after Tenser.

It's not I have too much problems iwht their decision that you can't use any ability after Tenser, but at least try to make some sense, and try to grey out the appropriate icons so to avoid confusion would be nice. Maybe add something in the description explaining the reason why Tenser will diable your special abilities (though I really don't see much sense in disabling the abilities from Shapechange and Slayer change), and at least make those special abilities un-selectable rather than when you try to set a trap, the thief will just walk to designated area, and then nothing happens, no message of ability failed or anything.

 

Well, greying out the special abilities button wouldn't work, because that's where the abilities that you can change into are located.

Tenser's Transformation? Dangit, I'm thinking of the wrong spell. You're right, they could have explained it better.

Alright, now that I've got my thought pattern straight. Tenser's Transformation still basically transforms your mage into a fighter, so my above post is still accurate. Since the change doesn't last that long, I don't see why the traps needs to be disabled, and having the thief walking there and doing nothing is a script bug, and all of the scripts in this game suck.

 

Hmm... still seems we are talking about different things... what I meant if after you cast Tenser's Transformation, ALL of your special abilities will be disabled. Whether you have cast shapechange before so there are those "monster forms" under the special ability, and your Slayer change, and you thief abilities, and your fighter abilities like Whirlwind, Kai, etc. etc. none will work. The special ability can still be selected, can still be "pressed" but just nothing happens.

On another thought, you do have the ability to detect traps, disarm trap, pickpockets, hide in shadows (if you are Thief Mage), Sing Bardsongs(if you are Bard), Turn Undead (Cleric/Mage) etc. etc. after you cast Tenser's Transformation, which makes even less sense. So the only thing greyed out is the spell casting icon, but anything under the special ability icon is also not accessible. However any special class abilities not under special ability icon nor the spell casting icon are not disabled. S for a thief you can disarm traps and pickpocket but can't set traps. The reasoning of "you have transformed into a fighter so no more thief abilities" go right out the window here

Of course another thing is if you cast Shapchange then Tenser's Transformation (the only way to truly make a pure mage into a decent fighter thus may make the 9th level spell Shapechange worth a sorcerer's spell slot), then you are stuck with the current form you are in.

As I stated repeatedly, the current state of Tenser's Transformation simply make no sense IMHO.

[ September 16, 2002, 21:42: Message edited by: alighter ]

 

You bet they suck. There is no decent AI script in this game, not just these available to you. MonsterAI is totally screwed, not to mention forcing events.
I'd suggest you to use some of 3rd party scripts, for example these:
http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/winelodge/79/GBScripts.zip
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IEEAIS/files/Baldurs%20Gate%20II%20AI/Party%20AI/gSeries.ace
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IEEAIS/files/Baldurs%20Gate%20II%20AI/Party%20AI/eSeriesv1-1.zip
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IEEAIS/files/Baldurs%20Gate%20II%20AI/Party%20AI/uScript.ace

 

Extremist, in addition, doesn't the Solaufein mod add a number of improved scripts that make fights tougher and such? Although some of these scripts allow the monsters a few somewhat cheesy attacks, it does make the mage fights a lot more fun.

About the spells, shapechange works as it should. Can you use the thief abilities and such while shapechanged? If so, then I'd say that's screwed up as well, but it's not really a big deal. You should not be able to use those abilities while under the effects of Tenser's Transformation.

How the heck are you using TT and shapechange? Shapechange disables your wizard spells whenever you switch forms.

[ September 17, 2002, 23:42: Message edited by: Rastor ]

 

Ypu, they should either diable the thief abilities (not only the special abilities, but also ones like pickpocket, disarm traps) when you are shapechanged to Golem or just let people use all abilities during Tenser IMHO. I don't see why Tenser + special ability would appear bad to them while Golem + backstab is okay...

About using Tenser after shapechange, you can utilize a spelltriger or a contingency. That's what I did to use Kai or Assassination and TT, using a contingency.