The big abortion rant thread.

Remove all ads!

I'll probably regret starting this, but the comments made by Mccain about Roe Vs. Wade that some people referenced in earlier threads made me wonder something:

What is the abortion policy in your country of residence? Would you like to see it change? Why or why not?

Here's my country to start it off:

In Canada, we have abortion on demand. While there may be some counselling required before the abortion is performed (I am not sure on this) and I'm also not sure if parental permission is required for teenage abortions, otherwise it is a free service on demand.

I would like to see this change to a system where abortion is considered an elective surgery unless there is an honest to God threat to the life of the mother -- at which point I say it should be paid for my the health care system. If a woman is using it as a form of birth control, I find that immoral and do not want to be associated with it (in the form of having my tax dollars pay for it) -- lots of doctors are willing to do it on the cheap and if they wish to do so it should be a legal option but it should not be publicly funded.

 

I had an abortion when i was 18. It was the wrong thing for the right reasons.

At the time, I wasn't working and my partner was quite happy working behind a bar a few nights a week. I knew that we couldn't afford to look after a child and that we weren't grown up enough to manage it. I had counselling before hand but I was determined to go through with it. It split me and my bf up and for years afterwards I felt awful. I couldn't look at a child without wondering about what I lost.
I still stand by my decision though. The only other way would have been to have the kid adopted and I couldn't have carried her for so long and then given her up.

I have a little boy now. I'm financially and emotionally able to cope with parenthood.

The thing is, when I got my abortion, the NHS (british health system) asked me no questions and just did it. The counselling I received was from a man who was clearly bored with having to deal with another teenage abortion. We had used contraception and were both legal but I still got blamed for being stupid.

At the end of the day though, sometimes you feel like you don't have a choice. It doesn't matter if you're prgnant by mistake or rape or if the child is going to be disabled. People need to be more supportive.

Nobody knows how much it hurts until they've been there

 

I'm personally pro-life. But I firmly believe that abortions should be legal, safe and above all, extremely rare.

How do I reconcile that? Simply: abortions are going to occur whether they are legal or not. If abortions are banned across the country, they will still happen, they will just go underground. Coat hangers, teenage boyfriends kicking their girlfriends in the stomach, meth-lab-made abortion pills, back-alley quack doctors, etc. I'd rather have them be performed from the safety of a legitimate medical facility than in other ways. We need not lose the life of the mother AND the baby. Persecuting illegal abortions doesn't strike me as being particularly effective in this situation, since few if any would be reported.

There's really no such thing as "pro abortion" activist; pro-choice folk who are actually keen on the idea of abortions are extremely rare. I understand the pro-choice position, I cannot however be down with the majority of the pro-choice community for several reasons. The main one being: arguments of "it's her body, her choice" miss the point for me. She made her choice...to have unprotected sex several months prior. I would saw well over 99% of all pregnancies are the result of consensual intercourse. Meaning the unintended pregnancy, while unfortunate, was the result of irresponsibility on the part of the woman. In no other situations in life (involving life) do we get a get-out-of-jail-free card. You kill someone in a car accident, you don't get to 'abort' the mistake you made, you have to deal with it. The mother should carry the child to term and then if she isn't prepared to be a mother, give the child up for adoption. God knows the waiting lists for American-born infants is several miles long. In short, I believe in taking responsibility for your actions, and that includes knockin' da boots.

Also - we are talking about a human life, here. I don't know if I jive with the "life begins at conception" idea, but what is being done in an abortion is undeniably alive, and it is also undeniably human, if not full-grown and autonomous. I've tried to reconcile the idea of abortions before, but I just can't get past the idea that you're snuffing out human life. Can't.

That's my take in a nutshell, so - I welcome any challenges on it, I'm certainly up to being persuaded one way or the other on this one.

@ Silvery - nice post. Thank you for sharing your personal story.

 

My opinion is simple.

The world would probably a better place if people who really cannot afford a child, cannot take care of a child, cannot put in effort to raise a child, etc etc etc and the list goes on and on would perform an abortion.

Yes abortion can be good thing for the right reasons.

 

Abortion laws in the U.S. are complex, because they vary by the state you are in. In the Roe v. Wade decision, the Supreme Court outlined the following:

1. In the first trimester, abortions are legal and can pretty much be done on-demand.
2. In the second trimester, it is OK for a state to pass legislation limiting access to abortion. Most states have laws that allow it to be done when the mother's life is at risk.
3. In the final trimester, the risks to the health of the mother are usually greater in having the abortion than not having one, and the Supreme Court ruled that states are justified in denying these late term abortions. Since that time, Congress has also passed a law banning partial birth abortions (which certainly would qualify as late term).

I used to be very much pro-choice, but after my wife got pregnant and you go to the doctors and you see that little guy/gal on the screen it changes your perspective. That having been said, I cannot place my personal feelings and beliefs on others. I feel that abortions should be legal in the first trimester, which is actually a bit stricter standard than that of many states at the moment.

 

As is often the case, I agree with Aldeth. After holding your child moments following birth changes perspective. Babies are so helpless and fragile -- I cannot imaging harming one. I do not believe anyone with the means to support a child should refuse. I have little compassion for the professionals who, because the timing just isn't right in their careers, choose to abort.

But I cannot fault the painful choice Silvery made and can only feel compassion for her. My sister went the other direction when she was eighteen -- she carried her baby to term, and then gave the little boy away. She cried for years afterwards and has tried to find him. Neither of these two decisions are pleasant ones and my heart breaks at such stories -- neither of these are acceptible choices to force a young woman into.

What are really the choices? To live with your child in poverty and perhaps alone as your family turns their back on such a bad girl. To carry a baby, feel it moving and growing, watch as it is born and takes his or her first breath, hear the first cry -- but never to hold that child. To abort the pregnancy, knowing you are killing something that is a part of you. My god, what kind of society are we where these are the choices?

Abortions should be legal. Period. This is a moral issue, not a legal one. If we, as a society, wish to reduce abortion then we must take the steps to both reduce pregnancies and help young families. I believe there are many procedures that should be outlawed -- and there should be a time limit (such as third term abortions should be illegal). The broad use of the term 'for the health of the mother' has turned into a cop out, it is meaningless and needs to be eliminated. I agree with Aldeth's "mother's life is at risk" provided it is a narrow definition.

Educating about birth control is critical -- no form of birth control, other than abstinence, is 100% effective. Teen pregnancy rates are much higher than adult rates when only a condom is used -- let's face it, teenage boys are stupid at certain times (the blood seems to rush from the brain to another part of the body), and impatient. Both of those are bad traits when having intercourse and condoms are often not put on correctly. Not many teens know that surface contact can cause pregnancy -- penetration is not required. Not all teenage girls know the pill takes a few months to be truly affective.

To help young families we must not turn our backs on them. If this means helping them with education and housing then that is what we should do. I'm not talking about welfare -- although in some cases that is what it will become -- we should instead provide the tools for young families to make it through the tough times of having a young child and help them prepare for the future (once again education).

 

a baby isnt a baby until it is born, until that point it is a part of the parents body.

Abortion should be legal at any point, though I believe that counselling should occur before any abortion, because as Death Rabbit said, people will find another way, which could lead to more pressing problems. Alot of people become more stubborn and selfish when they are told that they cannot do something, which could lead to both a rick to their life, and the possibility that a child could be born with problems.

 

The problem I have with that is at 30 weeks - or 2.5 months before the due date, most babies are viable outside the womb. In fact, over 90% of two month premature babies survive. If it's capable of surviving outside the womb, I think it's a baby.

 

My son was born at 30 weeks and he's perfectly healthy now. I thought that it was punishment for what I did.

I don't think abortion should be performed any later than 16 weeks unless there is a definate risk to mum or baby

 

I would rather argue that it(he/she)'s no longer a part of the parent's body at inception. From that point on it's a separate being, though living inside another. I doubt you'd call the flu virus a part of your body either.* Also, watching a little human in someone's belly make movements and such quickly evaporates any sense that it might be 'part' of that person's body.

The trimester boundaries seem a bit arbitrary to me, though I suppose a limit must be set and dividing the pregnancy in trimesters seems like as good a choice as any; it works well with the subdivision of 9 months into periods of three months, after all.

Not that I'm against abortion, though. In the end it's the choice of the mother (and father, if available) to judge whether she is able to raise the child and wants to put it in this world. I don't mean it like the 'it's your body, it's your choice'-thing, but rather that it's your choice and you have to live with the consequences of that choice.

I understand that this can be a tough choice for the potential parent(s), though I have some difficulties understanding why the father would have so much trouble with it, as Silvery's post seems to suggest. I can understand the mother getting attached to the life growing inside of her. She can feel it moving and has the hormonal imbalance to deal with after all. But the father's attachment at that point already seems somewhat strange and alien to me. I guess that's just me, though. I've noticed before that I've somewhat fewer attachments to the world and people around me than others do. Do future-father's get attached to the idea of being a dad, do they empathise with the mother, or is it something else?

* Note that this is not meant as that I think of an unborn baby as a virus.


I go to bed now, because feeling like you're lying down when you're actually sitting up in a chair is rather disorienting.

 

While I agree with you I don't think it would be feasible. Those that would not be willing or able to pay for the service will seek alternative means, with all the risk associated with it.

Exactly. I can justify capital punishment by accepting that they are the worst of criminals, but the destruction of the most innocent of lives is something I cannot defend under normal circumstances.

That's just as much a sin as to kill the child. The Family should not put down or turn away the mother and child when they need them the most. The Father (where known), should be involved in the financial support. The state needs to make affordable child care available so that the mother who keeps the child has the ability to work.

You would have to realize that you are giving the child a better chance than they would have other wise. If the mother believes she will be alone and unable to care for the child, then adoption would be best for the child. Again, Society needs some support network to help the mother live with the decision.

Welcome to Hell my friend...

Make the alternatives to abortion easier to live with and you will see fewer abortions. But it takes society to make it work.

Because that baby would be his child. Some men actually want to be fathers. A friend of mine never forgave his ex for the abortion she had despite the fact that he told her that he wanted the baby, but she insisted on the abortion. He abided his promise that he wouldn't stop her, and his pleas for the child's life were ignored.

As most of you know, I am a Mormon, and the Church has a very solid stance against abortion*. It comes with some of the strongest language I have seen in any statement from the Church. When confronted with a woman informing me of her impending abortion, I couldn't speak. I couldn't think of her the same way again. Ultimately, even though I can try to plead for the child's life, I can't stop her from having the abortion. But know that if they choose that, they can't avoid the consequences afterwards.

* The Church stays out of cases where the woman was raped, the child is the result of incest (though incest may likely result in an excommunication for the offender), or where there is an elevated risk to the mother's life.

 

It's all very well looking at things from the medical point of things or looking at cases were rape/incest or some other nasty is involved but there is still a very emotional side to these things.

When you discover you're pregnant and you no that you're in no posistion to look after the child, you're faced with 3 choices:

1. Keep the baby knowing that you can't give it the quality of life or the chances it deserves

2. Go full term and then put the child up for adoption. That means trying not to form a bond with a being you created, that you carried for 9 months and that you know you will never see again or hold

3. Have an abortion and then spend the rest of your life wondering what that child could have been. Worrying that you might have deprived the world of the person that could have cured HIV/AIDS or been the person that united the world. You have to live with the guilt for the rest of your life.

Abortion isn't the easy option. I don't go a day without thinking about my baby and I don't ever not feel guilty but given the choice, I'd do it again.

I'm not proud of what I did but I will tell anybody about it because people need to know the full story. I think that if it makes one person stop and think 'hang on, I'll use a condom' or some such then, even though it doesn't make it stop hurting me, it eases the pain knowing that it's stopped somebody else being hurt

(sorry if this doesn't make much sense, was awake all night thinking about this so i'm shattered now!! )

 

I believe abortion should be legal, mainly because contraception isn't infallible. Me and my girlfriend always use a condom - she's forces the bloody thing on me and won't let me NOT use one. However, there's a chance the condom might split and she get up the duff. I am nowhere near financially stable enough to have a child, and we are not serious enough as a couple to bring a child into it. It wouldn't be fair on anyone concerned. I think the majority of people would tend to agree that abortion should be legal but there should be some kind of 'rules' in place to stop people using it as a form of birth control.

 

Here we go again.
Abortion is murder!
No it's not, it's a woman's choice!
The woman made her choice, and the baby doesn't get one!
Yeah, only it's a foetus, not a baby!

And that was without gender slurs and racial epithets. So far things seem to be calmer here, I hope they stay that way. I agree with DR absolutely. I consider abortion acceptable if the pregnancy genuinely threatens the life of the mother. That's it. In those cases, however, it should be entirely legal and performed as early as possible. No matter what, though, in all cases, abortions should require a massive amount of counseling before hand. People in perfect mental health that have an abortion can come out cracked like a walnut. A friend of mine is a counselor at our church and she tells horror stories of the women who come in to confess having had an abortion. Sometimes 30+ years later, they still haven't told anyone. Secrets like that fester.

The problem I see with the 'abortion will reduce the number of children born into poor conditions' logic is that history doesn't support it. After Roe v. Wade, teenage childbirth rates actually went up for several decades. Abortions went up, too. You can argue a myriad of reasons why that may have happened, but it did.

All in all, though, the biggest problem I see with most pro-choice arguements is that they start with the assumption that the child isn't a human being. Biologically speaking, the child was a seperate living entity from the moment the sperm met the egg and the zygote started splitting. At that moment, it is a genetically unique, physically independant (even if dependant for life) entity. After that stage, there are no significant transition points it it's development. Science tells us that this is a human being, even if it is at a stage where it is 100% dependant on the mother. Morality tells most of us that killing our fellow humans just to make things more convenient for ourselves is wrong.

 

I largely agree with this. While I will concede the possibility that mothers might have a greater emotional attachment during the early phase of pregnacy than the fathers do, I believe most fathers are emotionally attached as well. Especially in the case where the preganancy was planned.

Several people have brought this point up (I'm not trying to single Barmy out - his post was just at the bottom of the page). Maybe, I'm just being naive, but while I know people who have had abortions, I don't know anyone that has used an abortion as an after-the-fact birth control method. I agree that some people have probably used it as such, but I think the frequency with which this occurs is vastly overstated.

Let's just think about this. If you are in a position like Barmy, and the condom broke, why the hell would you wait to find out if you were pregnant before taking action? You can get a morning after pill for about $20. That's a heck of a lot let less invasive, less traumatic, and (in the case of the US where we pay for our visits to the doctor) less expensive than getting an abortion. I've only had the misfortune of breaking one condom in my life, and that's what I did. (As an aside, I also think that sex-ed classes vastly overstate the incidence of condom failure. That or I have been extrodinarily lucky.)

 

@ dmc & Aldeth: I guess I'll know what you're talking about once I experience it myself. Or at least be able to understand it better.

Rationalising it like this usually won't work, because it's a mostly emotional thing and logic is quite powerless to help against emotions.

 

lets bare in mind that no form of contraception is 100% effective.

my opinion isnt going to be popular in here because I dont see human life as this wonderful thing which needs to be preserved. this planet is massively overpopulated if a woman wants an abortion, great, one less kid in the world.

Maybe so, but the percentage of child births would have been alot more had abortion not been allowed, these rates are always going to increase, if not simply because the population is increasing, likewise the attitude towards sex has changed and there is alot more happening.