The "Reality" of a Personal Evil

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This may be a bit esoteric for this forum, but I've been wondering what people's opinions are on this topic.

Do you believe that there is a real, Personal Evil?

I wonder because many SF books and games have "world specific" theories about the reality of evil. These often lead me to think about my view of evil in "this" reality. My views are complex but (hopefully) coherent. However, other opinions would be helpful food for thought. "Iron sharpens iron" and all that.

So, if some of you could fill me in on your opinions, I'd appreciate it!

Thanks - MAT

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean about a Personal Evil, an evil in all people or that some people are just evil, or perhaps even there exist a thing as the Personification of evil?

But I can add my view on evil. I dont think there is such a thing as good or evil, what is good and what is evil?
And then we use the terms so much there must be something called good and evil. I think that these ideas are the perceptions of a social developing creature, as the human is.
It is almost the same question of right and wrong, it's a perception as well(in my mind).

 

Lokken, thanks for the opinion.

To clarify my question, I do mean a real, personal, personification of evil. Similar to the Devil / Satan.

If he exists (the question at hand) is he/she/it intelligent? Does he/she/it work under any contraints or limits? How free can he/she/it work to further it's goals?

 

aaah, ok, well, I'm not being a believer in any of the religions or mytholigies I know of, though I would not outrule a entity of creation, or the opposite.

If we say it(I wont go sex discriminating here ) exists as a person, I would think it highly intelligent, if we follow the stories of lucifer. Let's say God was the powerfull one, and Lucifer the Clever and evil. Mat, plz correct me in this story if I'm wrong, I do believe you know it since you have been a pastor. Lucifer tried to trick God, to give him power (can't remember how much, half or whole I think), but God refused and banished Lucifer from the heavens. In his downfall, Lucifer tricked 1/3 of the heavens angels to follow him.

From this story and the Adam, Eve and the snake story, I would believe evil to very clever.

How to further its goals, I assume would be to convert people to worship it, instead of God. Though following the bible, we allready became banished from Eden and evil got us form the start. Now we have brought evil all the way from our roots, like some sort of hereditary disease

Again, if existing in some sort of pshysical form, I think evil would be bound to the different laws of nature as well, but if it exists only for the believing (you almost can't ignore lucifer, while believing in God) I think it's not some sort physical of form, more like an illusion created by the believer. The believer's willpower will then decide whether to take a good or evil path, when facing different situations.

sorry if I keep babling here, I just find religion extremely fascinating

 

Yes I think there is. I've heard stories about occult things happened from persons of who I know they don't lie. And there are aslo stories about angels and I don't think you just made up a sensational story. I believe in God and the Devil and also about powers you can't see, good and evil. Servants of God and of the Devil.

For people who like this subject, I advic: Read the books of Peretti, it goes about that invisible angels and demons and their influence on life.

 

I think there is good and evil in everyone. What you lean toward depends on the actions you take in life. I definitely think there is Karma out there...You build it up based on the "good" or "bad" things you do.

I also think that one can switch between the two...Going from good to evil...Sort of like how Luke brings back Vader from the Dark Side.

As for Angels and Devils and such...Who knows? But definitely feel like I have someone that looks out for me - I have pretty awesome luck...That I tend to rely on waaay toooo often!

Not win the lottery kind of luck...More like life's on the line balls against the wall come out on top in the end kind of luck. If you know what I mean?

 

You want my opinion? I don't believe in one all-powerfull force controlling everything. This means I don't believe in gods. And as such I don't believe in personification of Evil nore good. That's just my opinion.

I do believe in medical miracles because
I do believe that the functions and capabilities of the human body is far from discovered. (hence look at my profile) But I am a scientist not a sage.

Why do You ask? You were once a preacher. Must have heard a lot of this already.

 

In my opinion there is no Evil only views of what is right and wrong. People give personification to evil because we refuse to belive that one being is responsible for good and bad or else we hate ourselves. We revile those among us who commit unpleasant acts against society or others. But anyone of us is capable of it. So we refuse that which we know is possible.

 

Why do I ask? Because I'm curious!

Seriously - people who read SF and play cRPG's normally have considered alternative worldviews, if only for the games and books that they engage. Star Wars has a very different concept of "evil" (cf Bel's post) than the Lord of the Rings (more like Headbanger's and mine).

Alongside this fact, I've realized that this is a very international and intellectually diverse forum.

Both of these facts made me curious what sort of worldview people come from, and a question such as this will usually outline someone's worldview better than asking "what is your worldview".

*******
My take on all this . . .

Disclaimer: as previous posts have mentioned, I used to be a preacher so I come to this topic with my own bias. However, I do try to be intellectually sound and fair to other ideas.

I believe that "evil" is defined as rebellion against God. With this definition, everyone engages in evil activity, even me!

I also believe that there are supernatural beings that are fundamentally evil. The leader of these is an individual who used to be an arc-angel. He fell because he rebelled against God.

This means that "the Devil" (although there are better names for him) is not elemental evil. He is of the same essential substance that angels are created from. It is his will and thinking that has become twisted and evil. I do believe that he is intelligent and able to make plans. One huge limiting factor (and this is where my understanding starts to fall apart) is that he can act only within the context of God's permission. The Devil is not God's equal and evil counterpart. He is weaker, slower and less effective than God.

Consider the Eye of Mordor (in the Lord of the Rings). He is powerful and to be feared, but is ultimately overcome. He downfall is not due to luck or hobbit ingenuity. Indeed his downfall was foretold in prophecy and was realized by a group of individuals who were supported by an unseen power. (I can't quote it from heart, but read the last chapter of the Hobbit and you'll see what I mean).

 

perhaps he is weaker, but still...
Mind over matter, ain't that what people say?
I mean, the "devil" has many times been connected with intelligence (though evil).
I dont say that God is stupid, just perhaps, more ignorant to his true intentions.


In old-norse mytholigy, there are many gods, where one Loki (Loke) represents the trickster or evil god. He has extreme intelligence though as you say, he(evil) is overcome and, in this case, his treachery punished by eternal torment (bound by unbrakeable chains/ropes while acid is dripping in his face). It is said that when he brakes free from his prison, Ragnarok will arrive. Ragnarok can be compared to Judgement day (armageddon whatever)


[This message has been edited by Lokken (edited June 12, 2001).]

 

TO MATHETAIS: People reading SF and watching movies tend to have alternative worldviews because they read and watch those kind of things. Its business. We are meant to dream and admire those environments put before us. In short It is called harmless manipulation.

True I love the StarWars concept of the Universe. True I wish there was a world of magic. And admitting to this belief gives me a better life. So why not? its Harmless. Still had I lived in India 400 years ago my beliefs would have been different. Wouldn't Yours?
Anyway I do follow Your view of things and they are cool. Gives some meaning in both in life and beyond death.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited June 12, 2001).]

 

As far as good or evil taking shape into a human form, I do not know..it happens. I believe moreso, both God and Satan use people indirectly to serve some sort of purpose in his/her life. To take it a bit further, human manifestation is a frightening subject. I don't even know where to start talking about it.

Many people I've known wish that sometime in their life they would either meet an angel or a demon, so they can know for sure if there is heaven or hell. If there is a heaven, there is a hell. If there is a hell, there is a heaven. I think ultimately it's faith, not what you see. Sight can be very deceiving. Still to this day I question myself of what I saw that day. About when I was thirteen years old, I was confronted by some sort of a demon. I don't like to talk about it much. It still gives me chills thinking about it. The reason why I even posted, I was curious if anybody else has ever had any other brushes with a demonic or angelic force/creature?

 

Vandalore - you're not the only one. While I don't believe that there are demons in every shadow and temptation, I do believe that there are manifestations of both demons and angels.

A friend of mine was possessed in college. It was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life.

 

Indeed. That everybody has some idea about Good and Evil says something about us. We wanna know everything these days and we are searching for the truth. Of course what you believe depends on where and when you live but there's a God. That one God is ment in almost every Religion however not every religion goes on with it the way it should be. Many people believe that there's a God but a second thing is to know who he is, what he wants us to do etc.

You can not prove that God excists. It's a matter of Faith and Believe. And when you believe you have a prove, for Paul says: The believe in God is the prove of what you hope, and the prove of what you can't see.

 

I may not be religious and i may not believe in the god the bible refers too. But i know there is evil in the world.

Every child molester, mass murderer, terrorist, etc. That is evil.

 

This answer works for this thread & for Headbanger's re: Life after Death.

Pascal came up with this Wager:

If God does not exist, and you believe in him. . .

you GAIN a moral foundation for life and a community of support;

you only LOOSE some time spent in religious activity that could have been spent other ways.

If God does exist and you do not believe in him . . .

you GAIN some small freedom to engage in certain activities

you LOOSE eternal life in heaven in exchange for eternal life of torment.

Question is: Which is the smarter bet?

Pascal's wording:
"God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up... Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, you knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose... But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is... If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

 

If we are only belivers from pure calculations, can't God see through it then?
If we don't believe we can't just convert, even if we know it is " a smarter bet"

 

True, you can't fool God. Pascal's wager is just a starting point.
I believe that my faith is rooted in fact, and that sometimes evidence comes before emotion. Therefore a mathematical beginnning will usually end up with a passionate faith.

At least that's how CS Lewis got his start! From agnostic to faithful disciple all because he was intellectually honest.

 

BTA - Good points.

However, where would a foundation for action / ethics come from without a source of Objective Truth? If God does not exist, then Truth is relative, and that is a slippery slope towards relativism.