The Sorcerer's Versatility

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I have heard many arguments that the wizard is far more versatile than the sorcerer. This is incorrect, the wizard is anything but versatile. Versatile means the ability to change from one task or subject to another with ease. Indeed the wizard can change from one ability to another but it takes him 8 hours to do so whereas the sorcerer with the right spell selection can always be ready for any situation.

Simply look at the standard sorcerer spell selection. Every level (except levels one and two - however if your arcane caster can only manage spells from those levels he/she doesn't deserve any recognition) has some type of spell of every catagory (not sphere such as conjuration or evocation). Direct damage spells, defence piercing spells, party buffs, defensive buffs against magic, defensive buffs against combat, status affects and summons. A sorcerer can easily pick the best spells from these catagories and cast them when he/she wants.

Now lets take a level 15 sorcerer for arguments sake. He/she knows spells like so 5/5/4/4/4/3/2. I'll show you some spells that will make this sorcerer so versatile no opponent will find him/her easy prey.

Level 1: Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Protection from Evil, Identify and Armor.
Level 2: Blur, Mirror Image, Web, Melf's Acid Arrow and Invisibility.
Level 3: Dispel Magic, Fireball, Protection from Normal Missiles and Melf's Miniture Meteors.
Level 4: Stoneskin, Greater Malison, Fireshield (Red or Blue) and Improved Invisibility.
Level 5: Animate Dead (depends if soling or not, if not soloing you'll have a cleric to cast this), Breach, Chaos, Lower Resistance and Cloudkill (if not solo).
Level 6: True Sight (if soloing because you can always have Keldorn or a cleric to cast it), Disintegrate, Death Spell and Chain Lightning (if not solo).
Level 7: Ruby Ray of Reversal and Mordenkainen's Sword.

This sorcerer can do 'anything'. Sure a wizard can have these very spells ready at any time, but he won't have them ready 'every time'. A wizard might bring one breach spell, what if he runs into two enemy spellcasters with combat protections and Minsc is crying for a bigger sword. Still, please argue if you're for wizards and be sure to refute my points at will. It's why this is a discussion forum.

 

First I would like to know why you picked Ruby ray over Improved haste? Improved haste is one of the best enhancement spells a Mage can get, Sola with his MoonBlade, or anyone other Fighter with Belm and Grand mastery with the main hand (if you use the true grandmastery patch that is) can get 100 attacks per round dual weilding, combine that with critical strike and/or smite and see what happens.

Second I'd like to say I agree with your arguements and they are valid, but as for my own argument, well having a more versatile party is more important then having the best Dragon killing party, Mage killing party, Mindflayer killing party, Theif party or Cleric party, Mage party or whatever. I realize that a versatile party would probably not be as effective as any of the other examples however, these specalised party's will probably get beaten by a much better rounded party... badly.

But I realize I am rambling again so I'll get straight to the point.

What in your opinion would be more powerful spell wise.

Party one.

F/M multi
Blade
Inquisitor
C/M multi
T/M dual
R/C Dual

OR Party two

Inquisitor
R/C
Sorcerer

Party one has four spell flingers, one a blade for all the high level remove magics, one a F/M for killing and protecting himself and buffing, one a C/M for all the Cleric magic that can be used to good effect when combine with Mage spells, and one for trap's and lock's with a high mage level


Or number two.

Same as above but only three people which can let them level up faster and only one mage character who is a sorcerer the best mage in the game.

I'm asking this only out of curiosty since #1 has more melee and more spell casting ability, and #2 has only two fighter types but can level up faster and then there is the Sorcerer the best mage of them all and also highest level due to a smaller party, who could potentialy blast them all away after improved Alacriciting and Time stoping but against a party of four Mages and two of the best Mage killers available the Sorcerer may die before getting enough time.

As for my own opinion I think the best mix of the two would be

F/M
C/M
T/M
Sorcerer
R/C
Blade

I replace the Inquisitor with the sorcerer because even though he's good at killing mages and dispeling, the Blade can nearly alway's succeed with Remove magic (the party friendly alternative) by level 20+. And the Inquisitor can use the Carsomyr? big deal he's only a Fighter and will never be anything else other then a fighter and the Sorcerer with his uber spell power and the Blade with his high level dispeling magic can more then make up for the loss.

My $0.02

 

Can't say much about Sorceror 'cause I haven't tried one yet, but what I'm interested in is how come you don't have Limited wish there? If your sorcerer can cast every spell he knows, doesn't that mean that limited wish is even more useful for him than it is for mage (who gets only random selection of spells).
One thing why people prefer mages over sorcerers might be multiclassing, which can be done with mage but not with sorcerer.

 

@Abomination: there some spells you picked and I don't agree with. So, please, explain to me what is the usefullness of the next spells: Armor (L1), Web (L2), Invisibility (L2), Fireball (L3), Protection from Normal Missiles (L3), Improved Invisibility (L4), Chaos (L5), Disintegrate (L6), Ruby Ray of Reversal (L7).
Now, don't get me wrong, some of these spells might be quite good, but there are better at that level (e.g. Skull Trap better than Fireball, Hakeashar better than Ruby Ray of Reversal, etc.)

 

Web is useful early in the game, when you need something to slow everyone down. Improv. Invis. is just a nice defensive spell period. Also nice for sneaking up to people.

 

Okay I took Armor simply for the early advantages bestowed with it. Its a long lasting spell that protects the mage and is good combined with stoneskin if you don't have a robe.

Web has been explained.

Fireball is a 'must'. A sorcerer is going to be near useless in the first few levels if he doesn't have this spell. It's nice you've got some guy who can protect himself, but that doesn't help the party. You're always going to need some good type of area affect spell. Besides, fireball is my early game solution to any difficult fight.

Invisibility bestows invisibility for 24 hours. This is a very handy spell if you lose your buffs. Cast dispell magic upon the enemy cleric/mage to remove his true sight then invisibility on yourself so you can get your buffs back up without worry.

Protection from normal missiles is required for an early mage before he gets stoneskin and even after he has it. The last thing you want is your higher spells being disrupted by a feeble 1d6 arrow. I find this spell useful since it lasts so long.

Improved invisibility is a great protection spell, it gives you some nice combat advantages and if cast upon a thief he gets a backstab and retains some nice AC bonuses.

Chaos can create chaos among your enemies ranks especially after a greater malison. It works over a large area and can seriously screw any warriors over and have them whacking their own mages.

Disintegrate because I couldn't think of a spell from that level that I use often. Disintegrate is a good 'screw it' spell that to try if you keep losing a battle against a strong opponent.

Ruby Ray of Reversal is for the times you run into a mage that is of high level. It removes a spell protection from 'any level' starting with the highest. Last thing you want is to come across an enemy spellcaster who is protected by something like spell turning, protection from elements, protection from energy, absolute immunity and (I think) spell trap.

I didn't take limited wish because I never stated that my sorcerer had a high wisdom. If he did then I would take it in place of Ruby Ray which I could survive without till his next level.

@casey Improved haste is a good spell and I would have taken it if it provided a decrease to spellcasting time. These spells are mostly for a solo sorcerer and would obviously be changed if there was a party with him simply because someone else could provide a type of spell while the sorcerer could concentrate his efforts on different fields. Also I'm talking about who is more versatile between a mage and a sorcerer. I care very little about a party setup in this situation. I'm certain we could be here all day pulling parties out of a hat that could beat the next one we come up with, one would have a sorcerer, one would not and so forth. However out of option A and B it depends on what level of XP the parties are at? How much have they been awarded and have had to divide among themselves? If the sorcerer in party 2 has timestop and none of the mages in party 1 do then party 2 is more powerful. What are these parties equipped with? Do the parties have equipment based on their average level?

There need to be set rules of comparison and even then they can simply favour one over the other. You could call for non-magical equipment for everyone. So your inquisitor would end up with his weapon of choice and full plate armor + helmet and maybe a HEALING potion if you want to allow them for this fight. Mages get a staff and a sling (thats it) and maybe HEALING potions. Award both parties the same bulk amount of XP to divide among themselves (say 3-12 million). Ensure their ability score rolls all add up to the same amound. THEN compare them.

 

Sorcerer is definitely more versatile in BG2. There are only a few really useful spells, and being able to decide which spell to cast on the spot is the difference between life and death. The sorcerer gets this choice on the fly, while the wizard needs to plan ahead. The sorcerer also gets a *lot* of spells to cast. First finger of death didn't work? Cast another. The wizard would not memorize 5 finger of deaths - he would save some slots for other spells. The sorcerer does not have these problems, and can adapt very easily. So for BG2, sorcerer wins the versatility contest.

 

The reason why the Sorcerer wins against the Mage in a battle of Versatility is because while
Mages are definitely more versatile, Sorcerers can intensify their abilities, abusing their versatility by hisability to cast more spells than the mages without having to prepare them.
There are many many spells in the game that are not important, and even though variety has its advantages it won't matter when there are only a few spells worth carrying around and the Sorcerer can cast them all more frequently than any Mage.

The reason why Mages carry around a lot of spells is to be able to survive "any occasion" - and this doesn't exist in BG2 where most battles can be worked out with the same spells.

[ December 17, 2003, 03:08: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

About the only mention you made of solo gaming Abomination, (and that only said "IF SOLO" ) was in brackets in the spell selection, if you were comparing solo characters then saying so at the beggining of your post would have saved some effort and it's not a hard thing to do.

Well since this is the ToB forum and the levels go up to 40 then is it safe to assume since we are comparing the most powerful that both parties will be at top exp? I'm not saying give all characters in both parties 8,000,000xp since #1 has six people and two half of that so it would then be like this.

Party one and two both will have 24,000,000 million XP to divide among the respective parties so that would put party one at
4M
4M
4M
4M
4M
4M

and two at

8M
8M
8M

As for equipment then it would be like this.

For party one the only essential set in stone selections are the Carsomyr, Robe of Vecna and AoP for the duel mage, FoA and apart from potions everything else goes except the pro-magic scrolls which give immunity to all magic.

And it's the same setup for number two with the Inquisitor getting Carsomer and the R/C the FoA.

It's a loose set of rules I know but it gives more freedom of choice and for spell picks for the Sorcerer, well you are the one that's comparing them and I don't really use my M/C mages for much other then targets for the enemies to futily try kill through there protections and to use spells such as Chaos and Malison most of the time, so this means I'm not too familier with many of the spells.

Also Abomination it's clear enough that you are comparing them spell wise but what do you mean by more versatile exactly? which class can use more spells and cast the most? or which class can do the most task's unaided? if the latter then I think the normal Mage win's since he can duel class and multi class any other class he/she like's, so you can have a fighting wizard, or a theiving wizard or a cleric wizard, but the sorcerer is just stuck with been just a wizard (unless you cheat using SK but that's not legit) so in those terms then it's clearly the normal mage that wins. But if you mean the former case, "which class is better magic wise" then it is definately the Sorcerer which everyone else has already proved beyond me needing to add anything.

 

Was talking the versatility of the wizard vs. sorcerer spellcasting. I was mostly arguing that despite the fact that the wizard has a larger number of spells to choose from he is not more versatile in his spellcasting as the sorcerer. I wasn't comparing their power if put together in an arena - frankly I hate those type of discussions because its far too grey.

Sorcerer is more versatile in his spellcasting than the wizard. We already know he can chuck more off but he can also adjust and react to situations (if he has a logical spell selection) better than the wizard (even if the wizard has knowledge of 'all' the spells in the game).

 

It seems to me that scrolls make it possible for any mage or sorcerer to be prepared for any occasion. It doesn't matter what you have memorized if you have scrolls for what you don't have memorized. And we all know that scrolls basically grow on trees in BG2.

That being said, if you're looking for versatility in handling different situations (not just in spellcasting), then power definitely has to be an element. Brute force can replace a vareity of spells, especially when your brute force has magic resistance.

So, for a 15th level sorcerer, you forgot the most important (most overpowered) spell: project image. You can cast one project image, which can cast your entire repetoire of spells, and have used on one seventh level spell.

Next, you need haste at 3rd level to go with your animate dead at 5th level. A hasted army of skeleton warriors (you did say 15th level sorcerer) is a great way to take out many opponents.

Dump fireshield and replace it with farsight to control your army from a safe distance. Fireshield is only good in melee, which a sorcerer need never join.

You can summon a host of skeleton warriors and haste them, plus observe and control them via farsight for the cost of a single project image.

If you want a 6th level spell other than disintegrate (which destroys loot), try invisible stalker for more brute force. You can substitute polymorph other (5th level) for disintegrate (essentially the same effect, but you save the loot), and lose cloudkill at 5th level to make room for that. You don't need cloudkill because you get a wand for that in Irenicus' dungeon, and the wand is better than the spell anyway, since spell resistance doesn't stop a cloudkill cast by a wand, and since it doesn't use up a 5th level spell that is better employed on a skeleton warrior or breach. If you like cloudkill, you could also try death fog at 6th level, which does the same thing but with greater damage.