Ultimate Tank

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I've been playing through IWD2, and I've been thinking about the roles of various characters. In doing so, I've realized something I find to be a bit odd. The real purpose of the classic tank is not melee damage dealing. The core purpose of the classic tank is actually to distract enemies and keep the rest of the party from taking hits (be they melee, ranged, or spells). With that in mind, I starting thinking about the "ultimate tank" character, basically a massive walking shield. Now, there seem to be three critical areas in which this character needs to excell to me (and damage isn't one of them): AC, saving throws, and HP.

AC:
As you all probably recognized, AC in the 3rd edition rules is almost completely class-independant. I say 'almost' only because the monk gets some interesting options there, but for everyone else it just comes down to Dex and equipment, and most of the good equipment can be used by anyone. This means that the classic tank classes of Fighter and Barbarian don't really get any advantage here. A paladin, ranger, or even sorcerer with the same stats and equipment can get the same AC as your fighter.

Saving Throws:
Unlike AC, this area is almost entirely class-dependant. There are a few feats and items you can get to boost these, and stats play their role, but for the most part, your class will decide your saves. Here, we see the classic tank classes of Fighter and Barbarian really fall flat. Fighters get great Fortitude saves, but crappy saves in Reflex and Will. I'm not sure if Barbarians get better Reflex saves or not, but they still have terrible will saves. Worse, wisdom is usually treated as a dump stat for these characters. On the other hand, monks get great saves in all areas and Paladins get the wonderful ability to add their charisma bonus to all saves. Moreover, both these classes have incentive to invest in wisdom, constitution, and dexterity (less dexterity for Paladins). Rangers, I think, still bite, and the caster classes aren't much better.

HP:
Like saving throws, HP is largely class dependant also. Here, Fighters and Barbarians finally shine, but honestly not that much, and too late when you consider the possible effects of failed will saves: charm, hold, disintegrate!

All in all, I realized that Paladins and Monks are the ones that really shine in all those areas. Now for a little math on Monk AC. Without armor, a Monk can add their wisdom modifier to their AC as well as their dexterity modifier. That can potentially be +9 at the very beginning (no race get's +2 to both dex and wis, so you can only get +5 in one, and +4 in the other). Then add, at the potential cap of level 30, the +6 natural AC they get from class abilities. Even better, since they have no armor or shields, you can feel free to cast armor spells on them, the best of which is Shield (+7AC from potion or necklace) or, for longer durration, Spirit Armor (+6AC from a caster). That leads to a total of +22 without any enchanted equipment bonuses (beyond this point, all classes get the same from buff spells, enchanted equipment, increased stats, etc). Now, for armors, I believe the best I saw was either +6 leather with +6 dex bonus or +11 full plate with +1 dex bonus, both of which yield +12 from just armor. I believe the best shield I saw was +5, which brings the total to +17. If using the leather, one could over-ride it with a shield spell to get an optimum of +18.

So, the Monk can get +22 AC before uniform considerations, while anyone else can only get +18. They also get great saves in all three areas and good HP (1d8). The Paladin, on the other hand, can only get that +18 AC, still gets good HP (1d8 I believe), and gets the interesting mix of good fort and poor ref and will, but all bolstered by that Charisma boost. And then I realized it: I can take both! The Paladin's Charisma boost to saving throws comes at first level!

So, with all that said, is a Paladin(1)/Monk(x) the ultimate tank? The stat issues will be dizzying, but as we need no skills on this character, and the real purpose isn't damage dealing, that gives us both Intelligence and Strength as complete dump stats. With that in mind, the Wild Elf gives +2 to Dex and -2 to Int (fitting our pattern). A Shield Dwarf can give +2 Con for -2 Cha (the -1 to saving throw penalty is countered by their +2 to all saves versus spells). A human will give no Xp penalties for the one level of Paladin, but no particular bonuses, either, and can't start with 20 in any stat, so that +22AC becomes +21. An Aasimar can get that 20 in wisdom, but at the cost of an ECL +1.

Any thoughts? Anyone notice any problems? I'll admit I'm not entirely familiar with this system, nor with the items available in the game, so there may be things I haven't noticed. Does anyone else have better builds, or see any other issues to be covered in an "ultimate tank"?

 

Your reasoning is sound, and your character has good defensive abilities. But if you're going to make STR a dump-stat, then you've got yourself a decoy, not a tank.

From a practical viewpoint, I should point out that spells make a world of difference: In the beginning, you can manage with decoys and offensive spellcasting. But later on in the game (and even more so in Heart of Fury mode), buff spells become far more reliable in taking out powerful, resistant enemies. Without any melee-combat oriented characters, you will have a hard time dealing with bosses in the final chapters.
The truth is, dealing melee damage may seem poor, but it becomes greatly enhanced by the use of proper buff spells. Don't ignore melee combat.

As for the pal1/monkX: The paladin's saving throw bonuses are easily outmatched by items and the most basic of buff spells. It's not worth taking a mix-in level *and* spending 15 ability points on. When you compare a monk to a cleric, a cleric can catch up with most of the armour bonuses of the monk by using armour and shield. But the cleric will get access to the most powerful of combat buffs, which puts it far ahead of a monk.

The ultimate tank is a cleric. INT and CHA are the dumpstats, STR, CON and WIS are maximized. Whatever's left goes to DEX, for decent ranged attacks and reflexes. Furthermore, a frontline battlecleric would be best served by increasing its CON or STR when leveling instead of WIS. This may seem counterintuitive, but after achieving 19/20WIS, wisdom offers little benefit to a frontliner. More hitpoints or damage would be much better than willpower, a few spells and higher spell DC. Spell DC is irrelevant for buff spells anyway.

 

Saving throws are not as important as you think, charm spells are no problem since you'll always have protection from evil active, for many enemy spells the save bonus for a properly buffed character will be as high as the DC, whether it's the strong save or not.

Therefore taking a paladin level for better saves won't help to make a good tank, especially since you have to take the stat points from elsewhere.

Barbarians get a big advantage you didn't mention, damage reduction to both physical and elemental damage, +1 at level 11, 14, 17, ..., the fact that they can't get flanked or backstabbed can be nice too.

 

You should mention if you're talking about normal mode or HoF. That makes quite a difference as level 30 won't ever be reached in normal mode.

I'm a normal mode player so if I went for a high AC decoy I'd pick a Deep Gnome Monk with buffs but if I wanted a high damage dealer I'd go for a straightforward warrior type possibly Barbarian (for rage), a Paladin (although stats are spread thin with Smiting dependent on CHA) or a Cleric (for all the boosts Coin mentioned). I'd even consider a high STR Rogue with a two hander for maximum damage with sneak attacks (unorthodox build given the bad rep Rogues get in IWD2).

There is a strong case for the Cleric because of all the buffs and spells, it's hard even for a Barbarian to compete (higher HP and Damage reduction are good but the Clerical spells can make the Cleric as effective in that respect). Still the Barbarian is only superior if you don't care about micromanagement, buffing and all that hassle. That being said I'd keep the Barbarian pure especially in normal mode. Spending 4 levels on Fighter for weapon focus won't cut it in normal mode.

 

I guess I was using Tank more in it's original form (WWI tanks were basically rolling boxes of steel) rather than it's modern heavy combat context.

I was actually thinking this character as purely a decoy, while the rest of the party dealt damage however. I've noticed the AIs in IWD2 tend to focus on the closest character to them after they activate. While some of the scriped battles may get screwy, the bulk of battles can be triggered with one character while the rest lag behind a bit. This way, you can fill the rest of your party with whatever you like, be they melee damage dealers, ranged damage dealers, magical damage dealers, healers, whatever.

I found I was often sacrificing saving throw items on my front liners for AC, stat-boosting, or DR items in my last playthrough. Also, how much you put into Cha is up to you. If you put those points into Str for melee damage instead, you can still use the Holy Avenger with only one level in Paladin, and that's an awesome weapon.

I hadn't thought of caster-only spells outside of Shield. Clerics do get some very nice defensive spells, but can any caster-only spells really grant +4 generic AC, or 4 higher of another type than any other accessible amount of that AC?

My problem here is that you'll be stuck with some pretty poor reflex throws. While they may not be the most lethal of saving throws, they can still make a big difference. Also, at later levels, the monk get's natural spell resistance that progresses with level. The only other way to get that is the Drow of Deep Gnome, and that can be critical, as I understand it.

Having not played HOF yet, I'll take your word on that one. I wasn't in the habbit of walking around with Protection from Evil up on all characters, so some of the supposedly little battles did end up with a character charmed.

I had forgotten about that DR for barbarians, but how high does it go? I would think a cleric's Iron Skins would be at least competitive, if not superior. Still, no flanking or backstabbing is nice, too. Monks get some nice additional abilities, as well, however. Evasion is nothing to laugh at.

I was thinking both, but I've only read about HoF mode. Thus the posting and asking for a critique.

 

The cleric's Iron Skins can absorb 80 hitpoints of physical damage. A level 29 barbarian gets 7 less damage from every physical and elemental attack, so even if he gets hit 1000 times for 7 damage he remains unhurt. And the barabarian's damage stacks with stoneskin, which can absorb more than iron skins.

 

I thought barbarian DR absorbed all damage types too, but unfortunately it doesn't: It only reduces slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage, not elemental or other types. But Iron Skins does the same (8 skins at level 16, each can absorb 10 damage). I'm guessing that Stoneskin also doesn't stop elemental damage, otherwise they'd wear out much faster...

NOG, if you're going for the long haul, and are thinking of a frontliner viable for HoF, then aim for high hit points. Hitpoints are good against all types of attacks: spell, physical, traps, everything. A frontliner with staying power should have maxed CON, and preferably level in CON as well. Monks can't really max their CON, because they'll prefer to level up in WIS instead. For this reason, barbarians have the edge. But they can't match a cleric in combat, because of the clerical buffs. And if the cleric takes too much damage, it can use the Heal spell. Heal casts instantly!
Reflexes are important saving throws, because you can take a lot of damage from evocation type spells. Clerics do have weak reflex save progression, that's why I prefer my cleric frontliners to have Spell Resistance. Perhaps try a drow or deep gnome cleric. Still, a cleric without SR won't be too crippled.
My favourite frontliner is a female drow battlecleric. I maximize the CON score when leveling up. Drow also have proficiency in bows and longswords, which is very handy for a pure cleric at the start.

 

You're wrong. It reduces missile, acid, cold, electricity and fire damage too and stacks with everything.

 

Coin, HP isn't a guard against spells that do effects rather than damage. Hold, Charm, and Disintegrate all bypass damage entirely. Still, those all seem to be Will saves, and a cleric excells there. Incidentally, why should a Monk invest in Wisdom over Dexterity?

Also, remember that Monks get their own SR at later levels, and DR, too.

 

Ah, you're right. Oops. I mixed things up; barbarian DR is better than Iron Skins in this regard. Iron Skins gives you 10/- DR against missile/slash/pierce/bludgeoning, for a maximum of 8 skins. Barbarian DR also gives elemental resistance.
I'm still not sure if Stoneskin's '10/+5 General' resistance gives elemental resistance, though.

NOG, monk's DR at level 20 is 20/+1. Meaning it repels the first 20 points of damage from unenchanted (+0) weapons. Although the manual gives you another impression, the game itself is clear about it. If a '20/+1 General' resistance gives resistance against elemental attacks, then it's not entirely worthless. But I think it only applies to normal weapon damage.

The most risky spells in terms of disabling and insta-killing work on the will and fortitude saves, respectively. I'm not saying monks don't have an edge over other warrior types here, but if you buff up and equip well before going into battle, all warriors can handle themselves.
As for monks and wisdom: It increases their willpower, armour class, and the DC of Ki strike and Quivering Palm. People generally try to keep WIS as high as possible.
I personally prefer monk as a mix-in with my druid only. It's good for the Evasios ability, and WIS AC bonus.

 

I'm with you on that one. I never make a fulltime Monk as I think the animations are pretty bad (at least Monks look cool in BG2).

By the way if you're planning for a level 20 Monk it means that Normal Mode is out of the picture.

 

One thing that is missing from these comemnts about the offensive side of Cleric vs. Any other warrior type is the base to hit. At higher levels, the cleric can probably get their Strength higher with buffs, but the warriors do come with higher to hit modifiers and more AT/round. Though the AT/round is not as important as the to hit get weaker with each extra attack. The Monk also recieves more ATswhen fighting unarmed than the cleric. I don't believe the any of the cleric buffs add extra AT/round. That has to increase the overall damage potential per round for the warriors classes compared to the cleric. Also, the base Barbarian can have potentially 60 more HP than the base Cleric at level 15. That is a huge difference. Granted the Cleric can buff, but he or another spellcaster can also buff the Barbarian, so that in itself balances out. With that said, I would think that the Barbarian is by far the best Tanker.

 

That's a very strong argument if you take into account buffs by other party members. That being said the Cleric is going to be much more useful to the party as a buffer and healer: don't underestimate the power of healing! 60 HP aren't a lot when you can cast Heal multiple times.

 

When you are casting, you are not damage dealing, as well as getting bashed and interrupted by your enemies while trying to cast, lessening your potential to deal death to your enemies. Combat casting and concentration help, but are not foolproof. The Tank of the party should have these tasks only, to deal death and take on damage and spells and shrug them off. The other Support characters can heal him while doing this. Hence, there are 6 slots to use. In my experience 2 Tanks(Fig/Barb/Pally/Monk...Rangers flat-out suck in this game), 1 Semi-Tank (Cleric or Druid) and 3 support characters(Arcane casters, Missle users, Bard) get me thru the vanilla game. I can't speak of HoF, only tried it once or twice, didn't really care for it.

 

What you are describing is called a decoy, especially since they're doing sacrifices in the damage dealing department. "Tank" is a rather nebulous definition, it could mean just about anything - "any melee character" to "someone who is supposed to take the hits" to "whirlwind of destruction" so it's not very descriptive.

Agree here. However, you're exaggerating the effect - it isn't really more than seven points of difference between the best and the worst, and that's at level 30.

Disintegrate checks for fortitude, but yes, saving throws are usually more important than hit points. Especially fortitude saves, as pretty much anything you REALLY, REALLY want to save against in that category isn't usually stopped by Spell Resistance either.

Deep Gnomes do, plus they have that lovely +4 generic AC bonus.

You're putting too much emphasis on the monk's AC bonus from levels. A cleric can negate 5 levels worth of that by casting Divine Shell (+1 deflection above and beyond what anything else gets you and it's self only), and a cleric with Monk mix-in can wear Every God's Ring to increase the WIS AC bonus. Furthermore, if you play Dreadmaster of Bane, you'll get +2 WIS twice from a quest, which will net you +1 AC (through WIS) above and beyond what you'd get by being a paladin.

Not to go over it all again, but I think I got this one pretty much covered in my Jukka's Ultimate Powergaming Party guide, available here at Sorcerer's.

 

When you're casting you can be damage dealing even with a Cleric, I don't see the point here.

Casting Heal allows to shrug damage quite easily. My casters rarely get a spell disrupted (besides a Cleric won't have many skills to put points in, maxed out concentration sure helps).

IMO a Barbarian fully buffed with a Cleric nearby who can Heal him is a very good tank, nevertheless a Cleric holding the frontline on his own buffing and healing himself while bashing enemies and casting offensive spells is not a bad choice either.

If you consider a solo character the Cleric will probably get the upper hand because of spells.

I'm too lazy to list all the spells that can be used for buffing and all the spells that can only be used by the caster himself (Draw Upon Holy Might, Armor of Faith among others) these should make the Cleric a valid option.

 

I like the cleric upfront, but when he is casting heal or whatever spell on himself, that is a round wasted of Damage dealing. I prefer my support char to do this for me and continue hammering away with my Warrior Tank instead. For soloing, yes, the Cleric is the obvious choice, I agree.

 

I wanted to avoid most of the spell considerations, simply because the majority of them can be cast by a party member on your tank (and thus apply to all possible tanks equally) and even many of those that can't be you can get potions/items to do so (Holy Might, Shield, etc).

There are a few notable considerations, like Iron Skins and Divine Shell.

Sir Rechet, I thought Deep Gnomes got +2 to Int and Dex, not Wis and Dex. I see that I was mistaken with that. Still, the +3 ECL will hurt for a long, long time, even with +4 AC. Unless you do a whole party out of high ECL characters. The Wis boosts from the Every God Ring and Banite quests are nice, though. Perhaps a Banite(1)/Monk(x)? That way you could use divine scrolls as well, which should make up for at least a few of the cleric spell considerations, at least.

As for Divine Shell, 1 higher deflection bonus doesn't really seem to compensate for the 6 higher (ultimate) generic AC from the monk class. And that's assuming the cleric is Banite(x)/Monk(1) to get the Wis bonus (which could go pretty high with the boosts you mentioned).

 

Like I said, the Heal spell casts *instantly* in Icewind Dale 2, and this is the only practical mid-combat healing spell. There is no round wasted, it's over and done in a fraction of a second. And it's much better than a druid or cleric trying to make its way to the frontlines in time to heal your barbarian. So often enemies are in the way, and your healer doesn't get there in time.

First of all, I'd like to say that you should see class from two perspectives: Spellcasting and melee. With good combat abilities and weapons, ALL classes have the potential to be competitive in melee. Attack bonus, attacks per round, saving throws and armour class may be inferior for clerics and mages, but this can be remedied for the most part by items and spells.
The second perspective, is available spells. There are few items which can remedy spell availability, and spells cast from items are almost always inferior to class spells. Items won't trigger autopause: spell cast for one, they aren't available in the quantity that class spells are, and their DC and hit dice don't improve.
The latter perspective (spell availability) is far more important than all the combat bonuses, because proper use of spells in the game is the true source of power. For this reason, I'd advise you to focus on classes that have a large selection of powerful spells. The motivation is similar to your first argument, where you say that a powerful decoy is all you need to keep your casters from getting attacked, since they are the true source of power. [By the way, I hope we could convince you that offensive spells aren't as powerful as you may think, as opposed to buff spells.] Anyway, what I'm saying, is that a powerful caster (cleric) can serve just as well as a decoy, than any of the warrior classes. And this will prevent you from having a character with little or no spells as decoy, which is potentially a waste of a team member.
I wrote a chapter about this very subject in my IWD2_4dummies guide, it's in chapter 2. I'll spoiler it below, to save you the effort:

Spoiler

Cleric: Clerics, it is widely agreed, are the most overpowered class in the game. Being the only class with access to the Raise Dead and Resurrection spells alone, makes them vital for any party. Next is the level 3 spell Animate Dead, which gives long lasting summons that are very powerful at higher levels. Most importantly, the selection of buffing spells available to the cleric is unmatched by any other class. Their characteristics make them suitable to be used on the frontlines, especially when their CON or STR is maximized when leveling up, instead of WIS. The ‘battlecleric’, when properly buffed, outcompetes any warrior build in melee (except the modded & shapeshifted high-level druid, and the cleric-buffed barbarian). In overall power, usefulness and versatility, the cleric is the best. I have 2 frontline battleclerics.
...
To form a good party in IWD2, you’ll want a variety of (mainly) spellcasters to get the most out of the game. Of course, melee is an important part of the game, so you’ll need melee warriors on the frontline too. To discover what is the best frontliner, I need to answer some questions: What is the best warrior main class? As explained above, this is a battlecleric. What is the best race for a battlecleric? Which are the best cleric domains? My summary, answering these questions, is below.

Which class: It is widely accepted that the buffs in the cleric's spell book offer unmatched combat prowess, so I don't think this needs *even more* explaining. The second most powerful class, however, is a difficult matter. Many say a paladin is the most powerful warrior, and this *might* be true. But the paladin has a mediocre selection of cleric spells in his spellbook, so there's hardly any difference - you’re better off with another cleric. Min-maxing the abilities of a paladin results in poor DEX and limited WIS to accomodate for CHA. This means it’s a poor ranged attacker and spellcaster. Its only advantages over clerics are ST bonus, better BAB, and the Spoiler5!. But the cleric's spell selection outmatches all of those bonuses.
I think the barbarian deserves to be in second place, because it's truly different from a cleric, offering abilities like rage, DR, and loads of HP (=staying power in melee). When min-maxing a barbarian, you can maximize DEX, giving it better AC and ranged Attack Bonus (AB) than a paladin. Monks would come next, since they become powerful at high level, but are hard to multiclass. A fighter's many feats make them next in line, leaving rangers last with their poor spell selection. I should make mention of the high-level druid shapeshifts from the Ease-of-use mod, they are obscenely powerful, but only available in the late game.

Which race: There are a number of effects to take into consideration, when deciding which race to pick for a battlecleric. I'll list them in order of what I think is decreasing importance, but opinions on this are very divided:
Spell Resistance (SR): I cannot emphasize enough how good it is to have a frontline battlecleric that is spell resistant, so your mages can bombard the battlefield more safely. Clerics have a somewhat poor Reflex ST progression, so would take a lot of damage without SR, because they often fail ST from evocation spells and the like.
Multi-classing options (MC): The ability to take mix-in levels of other classes becomes very important later in the game. A pure single class character becomes much less versatile than a character with a few mix-in levels. Also, races which can't multi-class, are forced to use Simple Weapons, or pick Martial/Exotic Weapon feats. Classes with mix-ins also have more options to use class-specific items.
Martial Weapon Feats (MWF): Early in the game, most pure clerics are limited to Simple Weapons, and most of these give less damage than Martial Weapons. The Drow's proficiency in longswords and bows (all elves have this) is very welcome: It avoids them having to take weapon feats or a warrior level early.
Constitution (CON): Constitution improves HP, Fortitude ST and Concentration. So, it helps clerics both in melee and in spellcasting.
Elemental feats & diplomacy (EF&D): Basically, to get these you need 2 skillpoints per level, to divide between Spellcraft, Diplomacy and Concentration. Humans can do this, all other races would need 10 or 12INT (depending on the class), and this is an inefficient tradeoff for a powergamer. Clerics, fighters, paladins and sorcerers are at the greatest disadvantage, since they start gaining 2 skillpoints per level at 12INT. Rogues have the greatest advantage, with 4 skillpoints/level at 10INT. All other classes get 2 skillpts/level at 10INT. Taking average INT, just to get 2 skillpoints per level, is very wasteful. That’s partly why half of my party is human.
Strength (STR): Strength is quite important for a battlecleric, but it only helps them in combat, not when casting spells. For this reason, it is less important than CON.
Wisdom (WIS) : Wisdom seems like the most important ability of a cleric, but it is actually less important for a battlecleric. Every 2 points in WIS gives the cleric 1-3 extra spells (total, not per level). It also enhances the spell Difficulty Class (DC) by 1, but this is only useful for offensive spells which must overcome enemy ST. Clerics use healing and buffs mostly, so they don’t really need high DC. With 19WIS, you can cast level 9 spells. After achieving 20WIS (with bonus items), it's better to focus on CON or STR instead.
Dexterity (DEX): Battleclerics will frequently utilize their DEX bonus for Reflex ST and ranged attacks, but heavy armours don’t allow for a high DEX bonus to AC.
Effective Character Level (ECL): Some races start at a 1, 2 or 3 level disadvantage, and this makes leveling up slower. The dynamic experience system of IWD2 slightly mitigates this disadvantage. In my humble opinion, it is the least important of these points. There are other considerations, but these are minor.

Now to choose a race for your cleric. I listed the races in what I think is decreasing order, from best to worst race:
Female Drow: +SR, +MC, +MWF, -CON, +DEX, -2ECL
Human: +MC, +EF&D
Aasimar: +WIS, -MC* (paladin mix-in only, read Spoiler5!), -1ECL
Dwarf: +MC* (fighter mix-in only), +CON (Gray Dwarf -2ECL)
Deep Gnome: +SR, -MC, -MWF, +CON, -STR, +WIS, +DEX, -3ECL

Deep Gnomes by the way, make perfect monks. They'll give you double spell resistance at mid level, from the racial and monk abilities. Their generic AC bonus is great for melee.

 

They might cast instantly in IWD, but it's still their action for the round. They don't cast multiple spells in around. While the warrior gets anywhere from 1-4 attacks in a round. If you are trying to tell me the Cleric can casts Heal and still get all of his attacks, the game is broken. That wouldn't make sense to any D&D player that I know.