Valygar vs Keldorn

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I always choose Keldorn over Valgar no matter I'm in SOA or TOB.
But recently, something strikes me curious. I will always choose Minsc over keldorn as Minsc dual-wielding crom faeyr and frail of ages can be much destructive than Keldorn weilding carsomyr.(I know Keldorn is much more useful with his true sight, but I am only comparing fighting skills here.)
So now, there is the upgradable sword in TOB that rise str to 22 and since Valgar can put 3 slots in dual-wielding, he can dualwield that +22str sword with maybe answerer or the likes. Now, who will be stronger? Keldorn wielding Carsomyr or Valgar dual-wielding the +22str sword and answerer?

[ August 28, 2003, 19:06: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

Valygar really isn't designed to go toe to toe with enemies, actually, all rangers arn't suppose to. Minsc brings shame to rangers.
Anyway, Valygar can backstab, has spells, including some handy Mage ones (handy for a while, anyway), has a good selection of starting proficiencies.
While Keldorn has true sight, dispel magic (very handy), Carsomyr, some immunities, but no spells, and nor can he backstab.

Keldorn will always dominate Valygar in battle with Carsomyr (the ultimate cheese weapon), but Valygar is best used as a supporting warrior flinging arrows, or a scout, or a backstabber.

 

So you mean that Valgar with 22str dual-wielding Angurvadal +5 and Answerer +4 will still lose to keldorn with 17str wielding Carsomyr +6?
I just want to know if the str bonus can make valgar more powerful than Keldorn.
Oh! By the way, no offense meant, but Minsc is not really a shame to rangers by my thinking. (He is like the greatest of rangers with the smallest of pets).

[ August 28, 2003, 09:51: Message edited by: Skywind ]

 

Yeah I agree with Deathmage that Keldorn would easily dominate Valygar in a battle even given the circumstances. But I personally choose Keldorn over Valgar because I think he's sexier. Yeah, I know that doesn't make a whole lot of sense but I'm a lot more into the roleplay than the battle part. --Well, mostly. Nothing's more fun than killing hordes of duergar and such when taking out the drow enclaves in ToB but in that case, I'd much rather have Keldorn with me than Valygar; I think Keldorn's tougher.

 

Ok, I gathered their stats:
Keldorn vs Valgar
Str: 17 Str: 17
Dex: 09 Dex: 18
Con: 17 Con: 16
Int: 12 Int: 10
Wis: 16 Wis: 14
Cha: 18 Cha: 10

It shows that Valgar only lose out in Con by 1 point, but have more Dex than Keldorn(I'm only looking at stats which are important in fighting). Plus, if I'm not wrong, paladins and rangers have the same THACOS right?
So, if Valgar dual-wields Angurvadal +5 and Answerer +4, he will have 22str,+ 1 attack and a minor penalty in THACOS for dual-wielding(plus the effects of answerer against foes as well). He can also wear a glove of weapon skill(forgot the spelling of the proper name), but no metal armour.

For Keldorn, he will wields Carsomyr +6, 17str and the 2 slots bonus from 2-handed weapon skill(plus the damage bonus against the all-too-common evil foes). But he got to wear the glove of dex to enhance his defences, and can wear metal armour.
In short,
It seems to me that for Valgar, 22str,+1 attack and answerer's effects are all big plus, he can wear a glove(weapon skill) and there are good non-metal armours in TOB.
As for Keldorn, Carsomyr +6's high damage, two-handed weapon skills are his big plus, metal armour + glove(dex) will also enhances his AC.
Oh my God! I'm more confuse now. If someone can prove to me who is better than who, with good reasons too, I will be very grateful.
Thanks for all the inputs above!

[ August 28, 2003, 10:55: Message edited by: Skywind ]

 

17 str vs 22 str:
17: +1 to hit, +1 to damage
22: +4 to hit, +10 to damage

THAC0's (base will eventually be 0 I think..)
Both are maximally specialisized (is that a word?):
Keldorn: 0 - 1 (str) - 1 (prof) - 6 (carsomyr) = -8
Valygar (main hand): 0 - 4 (str) - 1 (prof) - 4 (answerer) = -9
Valygar (off hand): 2 - 4 - 1 - 5 (arguvadal) = -8

Carsomyr average damage per hit:
1d12 + 6 + 1 (str) + 2 (prof) +1 (style) -> 16 (22 vs evil)

Answerer average damage per hit:
1d8 + 4 + 10 (str) + 2 (prof) -> 20.5

Arguvadal average damage per hit:
1d8 + 5 + 10 + 2 -> 21 + 3.5 fire

Their THAC0's are about the same so I'll ignore that and say they will both hit 100%.
Keldorn will have 5/2 hits per round with the Carsomyr: 5/2 x (16 + 1.6*)= 44
5/2 x (22 + 2.2) = 60.5
* 1/10 chance of a critical hit
Valygar will have 5/2 hits per round with the Answerer: 5/2 x (20.5 + 1.025*) = 53.8125
* 1/20 chance of critical hit
and 1 hit per round with the Angurvadal:
21 + 1.05 + 3.5 fire = 22.05 + 3.5 fire

Total:
Keldorn will do 44 damage per round or 60.5 vs evil.
Valygar will do 75.8... + 3.5 fire damage per round.

I'd say Valygar is stronger, especially if you consider that the Answerer has such cool special abilities. But then, so does the Carsomyr. Valygar can backstab and cast some nice spells, Keldorn can cast dispell magic and true sight, which are really nice too.
I would take both, but maybe that's not possible... You COULD also teach Keldorn to dualwield and then switch weapons..
The thing is: Keldorn is necessary for the Carsomyr, but Valygar isn't really necessary. He could just as well be any other fighter. Minsc, Mazzy, Korgan could do that weapon combo just as well as Valygar (maybe even better).

 

I take both. But I think Val's sexier. (Hehe) Although there's nothing wrong with Keldorn either.

 

Oh! I kind of like Minsc so much that I didn't include Korgan, as Minsc can also wield crom faeyr with good result, althought not as good as Korgan. I thought of dual-wielding Keldorn with Purifier +5 and Angurvadal +5 before, but later, I think that Keldorn may not have enough skills to master dual-wielding and long sword.
For my party, I want only 3 frontline npc warriors, and Sarevok is a must to have, including Minsc, so I'm left with a last warrior.
I'm going to try Valgar, since your calculation convinced me a little already.
3 warriors, str18/100, str25 and str22. Hope they can clear up the battle field swiftly without much delay!
Oh! Yeah! Pls don't stop and continue to point out anything that I may have missed out, be it Valgar or Keldorn. And thanks to all once again!

 

You can always give a girdle of strength instead of a strength-enhancing belt, so Angurvadal isn't all that really wondrous. For secondary support roles, Keldorn is far more useful with his irresistible dispel magic and true sight. An archer won't be more useful here. Note that in BG2 a paladin is as good an archer material as a ranger is, too. Not that I've ever played with Keldorn in the party for long. I'm roleplaying, so I couldn't force myself to take him from his family.

Last but not least, why do you insist so much on longswords and bastard swords? They take four proficiency slots (12 levels) while Valygar is already proficient with katanas. Katanas deal more damage than any other one-handed weapon and substantial strength ehancement can be reached through girdles and other items, as said above.

 

I agree with Chevalier. You're giving strength enhancing items to Valygar, so why can't we give strength enhancing items to Keldorn? Bottom line here is this: Once they hit 20th level, they both have the same base THACO's (0). If they have the same strength score, their damage adjustment will also be the same. With Keldorn, you get a better chance of a critical hit, with Valygar, you get an extra attack per round. While I'm not going to do all the math (see the above message for that) I'm guessing that Valygar does more damage on a per round basis, assuming there are no critical hits. With critical hits, Keldorn probably does more, and since he scores more critical hits, it may balance the average out.

Of course, all of this is a moot point, because we're comparing an inquisitor to a stalker. Why are we even doing this? Their battle strategies are completely different. Keldorn is a much more in-your-face toe-to-toe fighter than Valygar is, and is therefore better to compare against Minsc or Korgan. Valygar is more of a stealth based character. Unless you're going to backstab - often - why even take a stalker with you?

 

I think he wants long and bastard swords because there are better ones around the game than katanas. IMO there is only one decent katana (Celestial Fury) and while being way cool, it can't really compete with the long and bastard swords (Blackrazor, The Answerer, Foebane).

Teaching Keldorn to dualwield longswords should not be a big problem, since he already has ** in longswords I think.

Someone mentioned that Keldorn is such a great back-up character, but Valygar can be pretty nice too, casting druid spells.

I don't really know who to take, because the Angurvadal may be nice, but there is also a girdle of fire giant strength that sets your STR to 22 and even if you don't want to use that on Keldorn, there are girdles of 19 and 20 STR...
If you can't use both and don't mind dropping either, maybe coosing Keldorn would be the way to go. You won't see him backstabbing for incredible damage, but you could always let him use Carsomyr and switch to dualwielding longswords. Have him use a girdle and he'll be great.

Edit:
I see Aldeth has beat me to it (I was typing the message when I was summoned for dinner...) and he made a good point. Why should Valygar get a strength enhancing item and Keldorn not?
If you're only going to have three fighters (one crom faeyr), you're going to have belts of 20 and 22 STR for two of them.. I would probably not even have Valygar use the Angurvadal, but a belt and the Foebane for instance..

@Skywind: Why don't you take a real fighter along? Why must it be Keldorn or Valygar? If you want to dualwield longswords, both Mazzy and Korgan could surpass Valygar. Valygar can backstab, but you said you wanted frontliners (not stealthy people).
If you would want Keldorn because you so badly want to use the Carsomyr, I understand, but other than backstab and spells, Valygar really doesn't have anything above Korgan and Mazzy.

 

I'm thinking of playing with a cleric of Helm now, so fighter is out for me.
I also know Keldorn will be more useful certainly,
but since I am playing with a cleric of Helm who also have true sight, the usefulness is lessened.
Therefore, I am only comparing their fighting skills here.
For the katana stuff, I dislike the fact that non-enchanted katanas are better than non-enchanted long swords. On the other hand, for enchanted ones, I believe Angurvadal +5 and Answerer +4 are better than the two katanas found in the game.
For the str thing, Although Keldorn can wear metal armour, he lacks in dex so much that I am always tempted to give him the glove(dex).
As for the critical hits, I was hoping that more attacks can also increase the chances of critical hits. So I must be wrong here.
Well as for toe to toe battle, I like to think of ways to make a supposed weaker character to become a better one. But sometimes, I think, I think too much...

 

You COULD off course give Keldorn a belt of STR AND gauntlets of dex .

His True Sight will still be useful, because he can cast it pretty often and it will save you a spell slot.

Valygar would be nice too, but I always have problems with not using a great weapon like Carsomyr...

O, and about the criticals: With every hit you have 1/20 chance of a critical hit. The more hits, the more chance. If however you put ** into two/single handed weapon style and you use that style, you will get a critical on rolls of 19 and 20, so that doubles your chance to 1/10.

 

Oh yeah! I am really dreaming! But now, something cross my mind. I maybe giving that girdle of fire giant strength to Sarevok. Do anyone knows what other str enhancing items(for warriors) are there except for the ones which form the Crom Faeyr?

I believe that my (main char)cleric of Helm's true sight is a ability like Keldorn's. So there is no much different I guess?

I am not very sure, but how is it that -1 and not -10 in rolls doubles the chances for critical hits?

 

Strength enchaning items: (feel free to add if I missed any)

Girdle of Hill Giant Strength - 19 - Adventurer's Mart
Gauntlets of Ogre Strength - 18(100) - Planar Sphere
Girdle of (storm?) Giant Strength - 20 - Underdark
Girdle of (frost?) Giant Strength - 21 - Suldenessalar
Girdle of Fire Giant Strength - 22 - Yaga's Shura's Enclave
Angurvadal - 22 - not sure where - WK?
Of course, their's Crom Faeyr, but that requires you to use the Gauntlets and the Underdark girdle to get - 25

As far as to answer your question on critical hits, I have to refer to PnP D&D. Hit rolls in PnP were actually rolled using a 20-sided dice. Whenever a 20 came up it was considered a critical hit, for double damage. So the chance is 1 in 20. If you have 2 *'s in single weapon or two handed weapon fighting, it gives you the ability to score a critical hit with a roll of 19 or 20. So that's a 2 in 20 chance, or better known as 1 in 10. Obviously, you don't see the dice rolling in BGII, they are done automatically (although under options there is a box to check that states "show hit rolls").

 

I meant that

*** Spoiler ***
The Angurvadal is in Watcher's Keep on the Captain in the Githanki Encampment on level four. But just like about every other weapon you find in WK, it's quite useless until it's upgraded. It is upgraded with Liquid Mercury from Sendai's Lair, don't know exactly where though...
*** end spoiler ***

@Skywind: I didn't know a priest of Helm gets True Sight as a special ability, I thought you ment you'd just use the level 5 spell True Seeing. But if he has it as a special ability, that means Keldorn will be less useful...

 

Off topic: Katanas own longswords and bastard swords! Clumsy, uncultured westerners! Nyah nyah nyah! Wakizashis are better than short swords too!
*capers around like an insane fool for a while*
(take the above with no offense, please)
*Ahem*

Keldorn is defintely a better pick for a good-aligned party with his uber special abilities (dispel, true sight). Plus, he can wield Carsomyr+6, one of the most unbalanced weapons in the game. The crusty old paladin is usually relegated to a secondary fighting position most of the time in my party anyway, with Minsc and my PC at the front lines. His 'dispel magic' ability is simply wonderful for taking away those charm, slow or hold effects on my frontliners and I'm not having him charmed or held so that he can't do so.

Valygar is...simply weak and boring. You've got to get the enhanced Angurdarval which is a fair way into TOB before he starts becoming an asset. His backstab ability is negligible, his spells are useful at times but not overwhelmingly so.

Here's my verdict: Valygar-not bad. Keldorn-extremely powerful and unbalanced.

 

Girdle of Stone Giant Strength - 20 - is in Suldanessalar
Girdle of Frost Giant Strength - 21- is in the Underdark

The sword is in WK, but to get the perma-effect, you need to use liquid mercury from Sendai's enclave.

 

Oh! I must admit that I didn't know so much about dispel magic. I always thought that it only dispel enemies enhancing spell(like spells which give enemies themselves more str or the likes).

 

For any toe to toe work, I prefer to use Keldorn with Carsomyr rather than just about anyone else. His talents (and Carsomyr's) are wasted in ranged combat. Valygar is a fun character, though, and I like to have him use a bow from the back. When the time comes to get funky with melee, though, I don't have him use swords at all -- I like to have him use that +6 Spear or the Ravager +6 halberd. THAT puts anyone in his / her place.
The trouble with Valygar, for me, is that if I want a backstabber, I'm going to use Jan. If I want mage spells, I'm going to use a mage or Haer'Dalis. If I want clerical or druidic spells, I'll use Aerie, Cernd, Anomen or Jaheira. In short, there's nothing Valygar really has or does that makes me die to bring him along. If I want a ranger for toe to toe combat, I'll take Minsc. If I want a ranged fighter, I'll take Mazzy -- she's cuter and can specialize better. I guess if you really like him, he's not a detriment to the party, but he's just not all that interesting to me.