Viconia & Shar

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As you all know Viconia is a longtime follower of Shar by the time ToB rolls around.

As her alignment is Neutral Evil I see no conflict here and giving her that cleric kit, via mods, works fine.

But alignment is also a problem for this in ToB.

I did some checking in old 2nd edition D&D (what SoA and ToB used) and looked up more recent D&D on the wikia.

In each case Shar requires her priests to be evil-I suspect this is especially so with her specialty priests.

Since you get Viconia to change alignment on the specific point that she should try to be less evil and, if successful, get her to turn Neutral that means she shouldn't be a (specialty) cleric of Shar anymore.

You may not care for losing bonuses/abilities associated with it but that, arguably is the part of the price of roleplaying the situation. And it isn't the only place (think of the Tears of Bhaal) where you have to make a choice between what is right and a bonus/extra item.

What should she become?.... there are times in D&D and SoA where a cleric has changed from following one D&D god to another (if nothing else think of the follower of Talona in Trademeet's temple to Waukeen).

Do you know of or think mods that do or should take this into account. I know some mods give her the Shar cleric kit, but-and correct me if I'm wrong-they don't take it away if you get her to change alignments.

 

Shar is NE, and her devotees in general are similarly evil - However - she also was trying to get more followers than Selune and Mystra to get her Shadow Weave stronger and more dominant.

Viconia is a very prominent figure by the time she has a change of heart - but not a change in faith, she is still devoted to Shar and her ideals even if her personal outlook has alterred a little.

She doesn't abandon her faith, or necessarily her crueler tendancies - nothing says Neutral people are nice after all, In theory if you want Shar to go - hang on a second, she's considering doing something nice - cut all contact to her spell selection. You theoretically can - but don't expect Viconia to even keep being a cleric after that

Consider this: Shar rewards Viconia for her loyalty despite her outlook alteration, or Shar punishes Viconia for no obvious reason.

Alignment is NOT the be all and end all.

 

Alignment is not the be all and end all but I found it striking that Shar doesn't make Neutrality an option for her clergy.

Alignment is supposed to be about overall life choices and related feelings. Thus while it may be hard to argue that one conversation with you would actually alter Viconia's alignment. But if you take the change seriously then it should present a challenge towards Viccy's relationship with Shar.







If Viconia moved from Lolth to Shar then it isn't impossible she could move from Shar to a different D&D god/goddess.

Though that may take more time than you have in ToB so then perhaps she would become a fighter of some sort.

FYI there was a way laid out in 2nd edition (Powers and Pantheons or the other realms related add on for D&D gods and their followers) for a cleric to renounce one D&D god and turn to another. The way in which it was done determining the manner and/or likelihood said D&D god would strike back at the former cleric.

The open declaration (without stealing artifacts or being part of some other conspiratorial betraying the former religion while acting like a continuing member of it) pretty much involves an XP hit and thats it.

(unless you're talking Lolth or different D&D god/goddess that is big on revenge/killing the formerly faithful)


EDIT

The wikia link her indicates that, at least to an extent, Viconia has been representing a toned down variation on Shar's clergy.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Church_of_Shar

The game doesn't make clerics do everything related to tenets of whatever following. But the description of Shar's church/following (and what potential clergy have to do) gives an impression that it embraces the especially evil.

 

Yup, which is why Lloth sends a few minions after Viccy They probably thought it would be a bit harsh to send another crew from Shar as well so ignored the implications.

 

Since you've been taking on a pretty wide range of powerful foes already (and winning) I suspect the response from the protagonist (w party) would be something along the lines of "bring it".

I suspect it was more they didn't think about it so much, though you do have a good point that Shar's folks may not take Viconia leaving lightly.

 

Well, she does have decent scores in other states, Keeper her into a Wizard(of shadow). I believe Shadow Adepts are not required to be evil as Shar's clergy is. Make it part of her change. Not all of the Shade enclave are evil, though they worship Shar. It's fits rp-wise.

 

Is the only way to change Viconia's alignment to romance her? Can her alignment be changed by a female protagonist? How about the Viconia Friendship Mod?

 

Considering Shar's dogma, and her near-claim on the portfolio of loss and revenge, I'd say she'd definitely be the kind of deity that keeps a grudge about this kinda thing . However... I seem to remember reading about an order that venerates a neutral-ish aspect of Shar as the deity of sleep, dreams and forgetfulness. I'll see if I can find any confirmation - I think it was in a 2nd edition book, Warriors and Priests of the Realms.

Edit - yep, the darkcloaks (not to be confused with the nightcloak specialty priests and the respective 3rd edition PrC) are just that - a sect of Shar that venerates her as the goddess of forgetfulness and the oblivion of suffering. It specifically says that LN, N and NG (yes) darkcloaks are acceptable - so fluffwise, it is possible that Viconia simply changes her allegiance to this order.

 

Without a mod I think it is the only way to change her alignment. And I say that without trying a mod which may or may not provide that option.

I admit not hearing about that order of followers of Shar. I guess its possible she could join it. NG seems a wide of Shar but I guess that really depends on its ideology. What do other followers of Shar say about it?

Also I noticed that Viccy is open to romancing a male even if he is a cleric of (unmodded) Helm or Lathander who each oppose Shar.

I think there was a mod out there somewhere (have no idea how far it got) that tried to have Viccy move to Eilistraee.

 

That would make a lot of sense.

 

Nothing acceptable in polite company, I suppose . I do not much more of this cult than that it exists, but I have some theories... The Shar cults aren't exactly known for their integrity and loyalty, and some backstabbing occurs anyway - so chances are that "regular" Sharran cells might not recognize or even antagonize a darkcloak. On the other hand, they would be quite willing to use any good reputation they have, or possibly even masquerade as such if it helps them. Shar doesn't exactly discourage opportunism. Likewise, darkcloaks might not necessarily be very obedient towards technically higher-ranking Sharran clerics. Theological differences can easily be resolved at the point of a dagger, especially if that point resides an inch or two in someone's neck.

At the end of the day, imo most clerics' relationship with their patron (matron?) is a personal one that isn't always a hundred percent immaculate as per the dogma. Hence the alignment differences that may exist.

 

I'd like to see a mod in which Viconia has no patron deity when the PC meets her, allowing a good aligned character to steer Viconia towards Ellistraee and an evil one to steer her towards Shar.