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And I thought the Baptists were bad....

It seems as if every few weeks there is a news story coming from that wretched land, where someone is being prosecuted, whipped, hanged, imprisoned, oppressed, etc, for something that everyone else in the world does everyday (especially women). One wonders why Bush wastes his time on Iran, Iraq, Syria....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16978938/from/RS.1/

 

I'd think its because Bush has a lot of vested interests in Saudi Arabia...that and all that cheap oil!!

 

Well the US does love dictatorships such as Egypt, Pakistan, Libya and Turkmenistan, just to name a few. At least Syria and Iran are improving, though at a slow rate. Hell if it wasn't for US/UK involvement with Iran during the 50's, it would probably be a very modern democracy today.

Ahmadinejad's support is falling in Iran, but only Bush's policies can keep him in power!

[ February 05, 2007, 14:29: Message edited by: Cúchulainn ]

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I always thought that ignorance of the law was not an excuse. First of all IMHO you have to be pretty stupid to be a foreigner in one of these types of countries. Second if you are in a country like Saudia Arabia, you had better make sure you know what the laws are and follow them. This reminds me of the American kid who got whipped in Singapore a few years back, pure stupidity.

 

Eveything is Bush's fault

 

Well, it would indeed go a little far to blame Bush for this. Morality or sense of the Saudi laws aside, the laws that ban consumption of alcohole are well known. To do so anyway, is inviting trouble. Tip for travelers: When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

In the US there are curfews for teenagers. In Germany and most of Europe that causes just disbelief. A free country? Where youths cannot move freely whenever they want? Isn't that government tutelage? For their own good?

My point is not that the US suck, but that different countries have a different culture, and different standard for criminal behavior. The Saudis's are about as hedonistic as the puritan protestants once were.

 

Look on the bright side; it's only a matter of time before the House of Saud falls.

On the downside, the people most likely to cause that fall aren't a whole hell of a lot better.

 

What ever my personal feelings about the treatment of women in other countries I feel uncomfortable with judging another country's culture.

My
When Muslims or anyone else moves to the USA they are expected to obey the laws of this country. If you are going to travel in a country not bothering to find out what a country's rules are and respecting those rules is IMO foolish.

Old Saying "When in Rome do as the Romans do."

If the people of a country wish to change the rules or the rulers that is their business. AMaster may be correct.

 

Well, yes, the Romans were another fine example regarding the treatment of women and whoever else they viewed as being outside the privilages of being a Roman "citizen." They were another example of an nation-empire that "highly regarded human rights." But I suppose that being beheaded or hanged is somewhat better than being crucified any day.

Let me put this right up front:

I may not know if judging another culture is appropriate or not, but I do know is that 3000 Americans have died in Iraq; I do know that it has cost America and its citizens billions of dollars to bring "freedom" to the Middle East, treasure which should have gone towards America putting its own house in order; I do know that it has torn my country apart both politcally and socially to the supposed "benefit" of the people of the Middle East; I do know that despite all this, America is hated in the Middle East because it has befriended Israel - enough so that 2000 Amercians died for it on September 11th, 2001; I also know that Bush supposes that it is my problem if people in the Middle East kill each other with kitchen knives because they may run out of bombs to blow each other up with (not that we are not doing a great job of that ourselves). I also know that over 100 people died just the other day because they happen to be in a market in downtown Baghdad trying to buy groceries for their families. Yet, it also appears that a few people are going to be imprisoned and lashed because they were caught dancing - of all things. Yes - Freedom is on the march in the Middle East.

In a region where people splatter the streets with each others blood in the name of Allah, I just wonder if they have more important matters to worry over than who is dancing with whom...but I suppose that's how it all begins...people enjoying themselves and celebrating life - what a concept in a place where misery and death are so highly valued and prized. Do I sound bitter? You bet.

"How many times does a man have to turn his head and pretend that he just doesn't see?...How many ears must one man have before he can hear people cry? How many deaths will it take till he knows that too many people have died?" - B. Dylan

 

See, I don't deny that the 'Muslim World' should afford itself change and reform. The point is how to achieve it. By force of arms? By sermonising? Of course what has happened is silly.

But then, since how long there is no more corporal punishment in the US? Are woman allowed to vote? Didn't America also have a prohibition once? How many years is the US away from that? Today a Baptist preacher and a Wahhabi preacher will probably agree that woman rights destroy the institution of family, and that alcohole, and dancing with girls are 'the devil'. Thinking of it, in Edinburgh I passed by the house of a puritan preacher, who had earned himself the nickname 'Joykiller'.

I really don't think we are in a position to tell Muslims what their faith really means. I for my part take offense in these moronic 'Christian' tracts exposing to me the shocking 'truth' about my religion, Catholicism. Thanks, but I full well know what my religion is about, so spare me you retards.

What is IMO misunderstood is the extent to which conservative positions in Islam are indeed mainstream. The guys and girls who tell us how tolerant and great Islam is, do so in english, are living in the West, were educated in the West, dress and look smart and are articulate. Are they representative? Do they already represent a westernised Islam that is alien in the homelands of this religion? How fringe is Osama Bin Laden exactly? If Wahhabism is rejected as 'right wing', how 'left of it' are the acceptable positions? As far as the excesses in religious enforcement are concerned the Saudis are practicing an extreme and reactionary conservatism. It would be interesting to see how many Saudis in-country agree with wether it's right or excessive.

Good article that illustrates America's dilemma when seeking allies in the Muslim world. However, Pakistan with their use and links to Muslim fighters isn't exactly unproblematic either. They have woman rights, but what do you make of their Al Quaeda ties?

 

Well I really don't like Saudi treatment of women, but I also don't like some things about the US such as 'Gitmo'. Not that Ireland's perfect, our government is completely happy to go along with it because we get a few $$'s for letting US warplanes land in Shannon Airport.

[ February 06, 2007, 09:40: Message edited by: Cúchulainn ]

 

You should obey Saudi laws if you are in Saudi Arabia, but that laws are ****ing stupid and should be changed. There are some people here who want to live in a country like that, they are just fools.
By the way, IIRC Utah has a similar (but not that much strict) approach against alcohol.

 

Well, yes. And that was a part of my point:

There is obvious resentment among the general population. But it is the authoritarian abuse of human rights that I have a large problem with, regardless of where it occurs. In this instance, the authoritarians in America are busy selling the American People on all the "great strides" towards freedom, which are being made by them in the Middle East, supposedly at the expense of the authoritarians there. It reminds me a bit of what Groucho Marx once remarked - "Hey you bully, quit picking on that little bully."