what's the limit on muslim freedom of thought

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We discussed the western freedom of thought in another thread. But what about muslim freedoms? Look at this stuff in the news:
Top Muslim clerics: Convert must die

Apparently, muslim law decrees that a muslim which converts to Christianity must die. There is still some debate as to the method of his execution, though:

And note that the article indicates that clerics who call for his death are viewed as moderates.

 

I'd pay special attention to this line. The guy probably will want to leave anyway if people are going to be so hostile to him. Now if you don't mind...

/me dons flame-suit and watches from the sidelines

 

I strongly doubt anyone is actually going to come out in support of a Muslim government killing a Muslim citizen for converting to Christianity, Paganism, Pantheism, or even Satanism. You can take off your flame-suit, Fel. This isn't really a question about the limits of muslim freedom of thought. It's a question more about the limits of muslim oppression of free thought. On the other hand, it will probably be an interesting thread.

 

Really?
/me starts removing flame-suit

/me hastily puts flame-suit back on and picks up a flame shield as well
Seriously, if you're going to make such a ridiculously inflammatory (pun intended ) comment, how could you not expect this to degenerate into a flame war?

 

That's one of the relevant aspects of this issue. I think it is inconceivable that somebody in the civilized world (I do not say western, I say civilized) would condone such a thing. How could this be the law in a country which supposedly US helped get on its feet? How can the rest of the world deal with such a country?

Granted, Christianity had periods like this; but those were called the dark ages for a reason. Don't the people in the muslim world read/study any history?

 

Yes, Christianity did go through that, but then people started to actually read the Bible, and then things started to change. If Islam really translates to "peace", then it should only be a matter of time before people cue into that.

The Western world should not take these people seriously. It holds as much weight as a Catholic Priest or Mormon Bishop calling for the execution of someone who converts to another faith. It doesn't work--for a reason. And with the new government in Afghanistan, it shouldn't work there either...

 

I don't get it - I always thought that Muslims just thought Christians were somewhat misguided - putting too much emphasis on the wrong prophet...

 

Whoa! Okay...I'm Muslim myself and all that...but that is WAY crazy!!

I heard that this sort of stuff happens, but still...that is completely unreasonable.

Also...if the guy wants to carry on with a normal lifestyle, I'd recommend the same as Felinoid. I mean...that looks like the only solution to the mess he's in (unfairly, of course...but still)...

Edit: @Gnarlffinger and others - Yes, Islam does preach peace and all that. Well...IMO, the clerics involved are the 1-2% of the really wacked out extreme clerics who spout unrealistic nonsense all the time.

For example...back in India in a mosque I used to go to for prayers on Fridays...the mullah used to openly advocate Indian Muslims aiding the "Muslim Taliban Brothers" in Afghanistan against the "American Infidels"...(this was waaaay back when...)but you get my point? Just ignore these points of view as being the opinion of the Muslim masses.

 

Um, this is not just about some crazy clerics. This is the law in Afghanistan. And some of these clerics are on the courts, and possibly judging these types of offences

(from a NYTimes article).

 

If that's the case, then this guy is screwed unless he gets out of Afghanistan and into some country that doesn't have an extradition policy for Afghanistan in place. The law of the law stands in these cases. I remember a while back we had a thread regarding a guy smuggling drugs into the Phillipines who was executed. While most people thought that the judgement was harsh, most also agreed that if you break the law, then you are subject to the punishment of the law. This is Afghan law. Despite the fact that we may disagree with it, if there is a law stating that conversion from Islam is a crime, and further if this law states such a crime is punishable by execution, this guy is as good as gone.

 

The Bible made it all better, of course. Not.
Europe rid itself of religious tyranny and superstition by entering the Renaissance period, and thanks to the Enlightenment movement. The Bible had hardly anything to do with that advance.

As for this convert there - well, Islam shows its true colours once again, doesnt it. When I look at the history of Islam the last thought crossing my mind is 'peaceful', but 'rather violent'. It has always been geared toward conquering.
Since only the whole world is enough, no one can be allowed to step back from the bliss.

 

@Felinoid: no flames from my comment, yet.

@Aldeth: I'm not convinced that this man will die, or even be punished at all. Afghanistan now has the eyes of the world upon it, and we've already shown a willingness to oust governments that, uh, tick us off. Cooler heads will likely prevail because, if they don't, Afghanistan will see huge cuts in foreign aid and a weakening of the diplomatic ties it has worked to forge with the western world.

 

Well there's no denying that such an action would be "logical" way to let these events play out, but I've not seen enough moments of level-headedness to convince me that this will certainly happen.

 

I can't deny the possibility that they will make the wrong choice. I just consider it less likely. (I wouldn't, however, be surprised if they did put the man to death. I'm far too cynical to be surprised by that type of thing.) The UN stamped out the last oppresive regime they had, so I can't help but imagine that Afghanistan has the specter of war on it's mind as well. It doesn't matter that there's no way in hell we would go to war over this. Afghani perception is everything........and the US has a lame duck president. There's no telling what we might do.

Considering Christianity's own bloody history, I'd say this is completely out of line. Don't forget that Christianity is about 700 years older than Islam. What were Christians doing 700 years ago? Also, it's important to remember that the Muslim world was also a completely different culture than the Europeans who became Christian. Culture drives religion far more than we are willing to admit. Islam isn't the problem. The cultures in which it is currently thriving are the problem. They happen to be Muslim.....but I doubt they'd be any less violent if they were all Scientologists.

 

The question should be what muslims do now. For like the rest of us they dont live in a world missing 700 years of developement, experience and advancement. :/

Also I wonder how Christian/European bloody history of genocide, terror and forced conversion puts my statement out of line. Because we have two such bozos??

Well said. I agree. Interpretation of Islam as well as outside perception is determined by its faithful. Only... that Islam bears the mark of its origin and its founder, too. I assume you know far better than I the details of how Mohammed spread his religion. That is the culture driving it. Conquest.

Now that attitude may be augmented in some social environments, toned down in others... the Koran is infused with this spirit nonetheless.

In other words: Islam demands punishment of converts not only in Afghanistan.

 

I'm pretty sure that the Muslim who already responded in this forum would beg to differ with that statement. I believe his exact words were:

An opinion from a Muslim about what Muslims do and do not believe is going to carry far more weight than yours or mine would.

 

That Does clear it up for me. It's just that 1-2% that really messes things up...

You missed my whole point. When people actually started to read the bible, they began to see the abuses of power for what they were, and that was the first step in throwing off this religious tyranny as you call it...

 

I don't know about that. Abuse of power is a concept that's been around for a lot longer than the New Testament. The Church fell from grace because the (equally corrupt) nobility was tired of being pushed around, so they pushed back. The bible had nothing to do with these political machinations.

 

And at what exactly time did religious wars burst out all over Europe?

Besides, what do you call superstition? People have largely abandonned religion and what have they took up instead? Horoscopes. Tarot. Chinese cookies. Bioenergotherapy. Herbs from exotic shamen. All sorts of lucky charms. Is that somehow less superstitious than religion? *sigh*

[ March 25, 2006, 13:54: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

I think Dendri isn't saying there isn't any superstition any more, he's just saying that Renaissance Europe threw away RELIGIOUS tyranny and superstition.

One of the ironies of today was that the middle-east was far more advanced than Europe during the crusades. Saladin was very accepting of Christian, Jewish and Muslim beliefs and hoped they could all get along. Now the middle-east (with exceptions such as Dubai) is forcing religion on itself and the 'Christian/Western' world is more advanced and tolerant of other peoples' religions (although there are and probably always will be a small few who are not like this).

It does seem that these clerics need to bury their faces in their holy book again but this time being supervised by somebody who can explain that they Allah does NOT want them to murder all the heathens and such.