Where's the line between a sport and a game?

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Chess? Darts? Snooker? Tiddlywinks? Counterstrike?

Where do you draw the line between a sport and a game?

To me, a sport is something that requires a show of repeated physical ability. A game is something that relies on the mechanics of the game in question and the physical attributes of the player, usually, have nothing to do with the outcome.

I do believe darts and snooker are sports as it requires a physical aspect, however undemanding. It involves great physical technique to be consistently accurate over the course of a match. Some people have trouble looking Phil Taylor or Raymond van Barneveld and see them as sportsmen, but they are. You could train a monkey to move a chess piece, whereas putting a dart in that inch wide red bit on a darts board is incredibly difficult. Doing that consistently is even more so.

 

I like your definition, but it is a bit troublesome. Yes, you could teach a monkey to move a chesspiece, but you could also train a monkey to throw a dart in the general direction of the dart board. The monkey probably won't be good at either, but both require some amount of skill. Hitting the dart board will probably be as much troublesome for the monkey as placing the chess piece on a single square, so why not compare hitting the treble 20 with making logical decisions in chess?

And something different, are all things that require repeated physical ability a sport? How about scuba diving? There aren't any competitions in it, but it does require repeated physical ability (although divers tend to make as less effort as possible). It is probably best described as a leisure activity and not a sport, so is running a sport if it is purely a recreational activity without any competitive aspect?


Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with your definition, but I just wanna give some food for thought.

 

Some idiots want 'competitive eating' to be labeled a sport and included in the Olympics

 

Barmy, I like your definition. Coordination and fine motor control is every bit as essential as strength and speed. This is a question I've had to deal with in the past, especially when talking about fencing to people who think a sport must involve a ball, beer, and TV commercials.

@Mesmero: To me, a sport is defined by the activity itself, not the degree to which one participates in that activity. Perhaps that criterion should be used when making the distinction between an "athlete" and a "hobbyist"?

 

I like Barmy's definition too, although some context was omitted from the sport definition , which is what Mesmero is picking on. I mean, I could say typing and piano playing has repeated physical activity too, so they are both sports.

The bit that is missing is that all sports are games, but not all games are sports. This rules out those activities. So it's a set and subset problem - which games belong to the set of sports, and how do you determine it? Now in this context, Barmy's definition seems correct.

Some other weird things that you see on the sports channels:

Poker - I think it should be a game. It depends on probabilities and outwitting the opponent. The only physical part is making sure you don't sweat when you bluff.

Bowling - like darts, a sport that requires repeated accuracy albeit limited strategy.

Fishing - this is just weird. It's more of a hobby than a game, let alone a sport.

Hunting/shooting/Counterstrike/Laser Tag - This one is tough. In some ways, it's like darts, with more movement and strategy. The problem is, the trigger isn't pressed as often and so there's less repeated physical activity.

 

Fishing - there's still quite a large physical component with the large game stuff. Spend 3-4 hours reeling in a Marlin and you'd be absolutely naked. There's also a lot of skill involved in bringing the fish in without snapping the line. Having said that, luck plays a huge part compared to most sports.

They had the world paintball championship (or something to that effect) on Foxsports recently and that looked quite physically orientated (these guys were diving, jumping and running all over the place), presumably laser tag would be similar. The other shooting (stationary thing where you shoot little clay pigeons that get launched into the air) is yeah, a bit like darts.
cs\ut\other games - this is a hard one - digital sport perhaps, but then again you wouldn't compare, say Madden (American football computer game) to the real game, so why would you cs (other than the competitions, the commentators and the cash).
Chess - nah, its entirely mental, you don't even need fingers, arm etc. or even an ounce of fitness to play this. Its the best strategy game ever created, but I feel it falls a bit short of being a sport.
I was thinking of the notion of only humans being able to play a sport competitively. This would hold up for soccer, cricket, football, hockey etc and would exclude chess, counterstrike, darts, the clay-pidgeon style shooting. I realised it kind of fell short in regards to running, swimming, shot-put etc.

also

I agree with this, but there's still the mental side to consider, especially in team sports. Repeatedly producing the worlds greatest physical performance in many team sports probably wouldn't get you too far if you're opponent was able to repeatedly ready your motives and simply outplay you in the mental part of the game.

 

I would say that counter-strike is an e-sport. People go to LAN's and win huge sums of money. Having played it at fairly high levels of competition I'm biased, but I have some friends that are on very good teams(one of them won Ryu LAN this summer for 50K). That said I would only see it as a sport if it was played in Leagues...CAL, CEVO, etc. There is ALOT more strategy and just flat reaction time to it than most people think.


www.caleague.com
http://www.cevolved.com/

 

Chess, Poker, D&D, Counterstrike, Civ IV are games. If I can do them without finding myself short for breath or in physical pain, they aren't sports.

Darts, bowling and Snooker require fine motor skills, and as suck can fall into the grey area.

 

What is a Sport -- George Carlin:

To my way of thinking there are really only three sports: baseball, basketball, and football. Everything else is either a game or an activity.

Hockey comes to mind. People think hockey is a sport. It's not. Hockey is three activities taking place at the same time: ice skating, fooling around with a puck, and beating the sh t out of somebody. If these guys had more brains then teeth, they'd do these things one at a time. First go ice-skating, then fool around with a puck, then you go to the bar and beat the sh t out of somebody. The day would last longer, and these guys would have a lot more fun. Another reason why hockey isn't a sport is that it's not played with a ball. Anything not played with a ball can't be a sport. These are my rules, I make 'em up.

Soccer. Soccer is not a sport because you can't use your arms. Anything where you can't use your arms can't be a sport. Tap dancing isn't a sport. I rest my case.

Running. People think running is a sport. Running isn't a sport because anybody can do it. I can run, you can run. For Christ sakes, my mother can run! You don't see her on the cover of Sports Illustrated, do you?

Swimming. Swimming isn't a sport. Swimming is a way to keep from drowning. That's just common sense. Sailing isn't a sport. Sailing is a way to get somewhere. Riding the bus isn't a sport, why the f ck should sailing be a sport?

Boxing is not a sport either. Boxing is a way to beat the sh t out of somebody. In that respect, boxing is actually a more sophisticated way of hockey. In spite of what the police tell you, beating the sh t out of somebody is not a sport. When police brutality becomes an Olympic event, fine, then boxing can be a sport.

Bowling. Bowling isn't a sport because you have to rent shoes. Don't forget, these are my rules. I make 'em up.

Billiards. Some people think billiards is a sport, but it can't be, because there's no chance of serious injury. Unless, of course, you welch on a bet in a tough neighborhood. Then, if you wind up with a pool cue stickin' out of your ***, you know you might be the victim of a sports-related injury. But that ain't billiards, that's pool, and that starts with a P, and that rhymes with D, and that brings me to darts.

Darts could have been a sport, because at least there's a chance to put someone's eye out. But, alas, darts will never be a sport, because the whole object of the game is to reach zero, which goes against all sports logic.

Lacrosse is not a sport; lacrosse is a f ggoty college activity. I don't care how rough it is, anytime you're running around a field, waving a stick with a little net on the end of it, you're engaged in a f ggoty college activity. Period.

Field hockey and fencing. Same thing. F ggoty college ****. Also these activities aren't sports, because you can't gamble on them. Anything you can't gamble on can't be a sport. When was the last time you made a f ckin' fencing bet?

Gymnastics is not a sport because Romanians are good at it. It took me a long time to come up with that rule, but godd mmit, I did it.

Polo isn't a sport. Polo is golf on horseback. Without holes. It's a great concept, but not a sport. And as far as water polo is concerned, I hesitate to even mention it, because it's extremely cruel to horses.

Which brings me to hunting. You think hunting is a sport? Ask the deer. The only good thing about hunting is the many fatal accidents on the weekends. And, of course, the permanently disfigured hunters who survive such accidents.

Then you have tennis. Tennis is very trendy and very fruity, but it's not a sport. It's just a way to meet other trendy fruits. Technically, tennis is an advanced form a Ping-Pong. In fact, tennis is Ping-Pong played while standing on the table. Great concept, not a sport.

In fact, all racket games are nothing more the derivatives of Ping-Pong. Even volleyball is, technically, racketless, team Ping-Pong played with an inflated ball and raised net while standing on the table.

And finally welcome to golf. For my full take on golf, I refer you to other routines, but let it just be said golf is a game that might possibly be fun, if it could be played alone. But it's the vacuous, striving, superficial, male-bonding joiners one has to associate with that makes it such a repulsive pastime. And it is decidedly not a sport. Period.

 

Personally i don't consider darts a sport. You get the hang of that game in a pub with a dart in one hand and a pint in the other. Just look at all the athletic bodies on the stage at your average darts tournament, need i say more ?

I've heard Barney mention a few times that darts is "topsport", but anything that involves climbing a few steps is a challenge if you have a gut like him, so that don't fly with me.

 

Just watched the World Darts Championship. There was this guy niknamed something like Amazin Johny or somewhat that most of the time scored 120s by hitting double 20s. So I said that it will be challenging or at least a bit demmanding if after a shot you could turn the board (?) around like a roulette so you have to adjust your 'automatic' shot somewhat.
Here's something about darts: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/front_page/1115491.stm

Now that's winter, I usually watch some of the winter's sports; you want something demmanding, try biathlon. But what's so demmanding in free falling from a ramp and let gravity do the rest? Somehow skyjumping (I don't know why they call it skyjumping: you don't jump from sky) is a sport.

Equestrians? Ask the horse! And they don't even see a penny out of their effort!

So if you say that throwing darts in a given direction (and usually you throw them in the same direction and from the same spot giving that a sense of arm 'accustomization') involves great physical technique to be consistently accurate over the course of a match, can you call sport playing a computer game, where you have to be very accurate with the mouse (and is not always the same arm mechanical movement)?
I'm not saying computer game competitions are sports; racing a car is a sports, why racing a car in a computer game isn't when you do the exactly same thing but just with no risk of getting injured?
Chess demmands you to think a lot, so you use your brain, isn't that something physical?

 

@T2

LMAO

That was my favorite, totally unexpected

 

Baseball is not a sport. It is 10 to13 guys standing around on a field waiting. One guy finally gets a hit and starts running. If there is any one on a base he starts running etc. A couple of the guys in the field may start running to get the ball but mostly it is standing around waiting for something to happen.

What's sporting about baseball. I'm tempted to say only a guy could think it is a sport but honesty compels to admit that I know gals that think it is a sport.

Now horseback riding...no that isn't a sport it is a passion. Something that goes far beyond sport.

 

Well, I would consider baseball a sport, because there is definitely a skill set involved. While I haven't played baseball since Little League, I imagine that it requires a whole lot of eye hand coordination to be able to hit a a ball thrown by a major league pitcher. By extention, I also think there's a pretty obvious skill set from the pitcher as well. If baseball is not a sport, then we have to get rid of a whole lot of other things that are considered sports, because they have an even smaller skill set than baseball.

My definition of sport is simpler - to be a sport, it must require that the people performing the action have a skill set that is much greater than what the general population can ever hope to acheive. In order for it to be a sport, the actions of the professionals should be so much greater that the average person should not be able to compete against them and win.

As such, I think things like baseball, football, soccer, hockey, basketeball, and a host of other games that involve a high degree of athletic ability are all sports. There probably aren't any people in the general population no matter how hard they practice that can play that sport with the same level of proficiency as the professionals. I don't know anyone who could win a home run contest with the sluggers from MLB. I don't know anyone who can beat an NBA player in a dunk contest.

However, other things like darts, bowling, and poker are not sports, because the average person with enough practice can beat the professionals on a good day. I can sit down with the world poker champion, and while I won't be able to beat him with consistency, I will be able to win a few hands. I imagine a really good local league bowler, if he has a good game, could outscore a professional bowler. Again, he won't win consistently. However, I don't think a really good local league basketball player can out dunk LeBron James. Or, as another example, I don't think a local league golfer could beat Tiger Woods. The difference is that for it to be a true sport, the non-professionals can't beat the professionals, even on a good day.

 

A sport has the following requirements:

1. The competitors must be athletic (a person who excels in the competition must be in far better shape than the average person). There must be physical activity on the part of the human athlete. Sweat must be involved. Anything powered by anything other than the human athlete qualifies the competition as an event. Racing is an event. Fat guys sitting on their ass for hours does not qualify as a sport. Horse racing is an event. The horses are incredible, but face it the jockeys are specifically chosen because they're NOT a big, strong athlete. Being able to walk around for four hours does not qualify someone as an athlete, golf fails this test.

2. There must be a common object that is required to go from point A to point B. One side has possession of the object, the other side wants possession of the object. The object must be inanimate (dating is not a sport). Boxing is a event. Wrestling is ... well ... fake. Any kind of racing takes a hit here.

3. Head-to-head competition (this is closely related to #2). Track meets are athletic events -- sure the competitors are in great shape, but there's no head-to-head competition. Everybody just runs alongside everyone else. Darts and golf could only qualify if one person was trying to block the shot.

4. There must be a quantifiable way to determine the winner -- there must be points of some kind. Points are given for a specific acheivement, they are not subjective (anything giving points for 'style' is out). Rodeo is entertaining, dangerous, and outright insane but the winner is determined qualitatively by judges -- it is not a sport.

5. Extensive practice must be involved in order to excel at a sport. The 'weekend warrior' can not be a professional in the sport. A professional in the sport requires extensive training. Sure anyone can play many sports, but in order to be great it must take training and practice.

All of the above must be met for the competition to be considered a sport.

 

Hokay, My post re baseball was a bit tongue-in-check but I'll be truly serious.

As I understand the prior posts you are using the term "sport" in an extremely restrictive way. Limiting it to professionals. My comments on 'professional sports' would entail a new thread so I won't go there.

The on-line dictionary defines sport as follows:

The synonym is Fun

This would cover a lot of activities as you can see. Perhaps the way you are using the word it should be capitalized: Sport rather than sport.

Sport (capitalized) might be what T2Bruno says but sport (small s) would pretty much be whatever I (or others) defined it to be and would differ from person to person.

 

Nakia, you're not being a sport about this....

Oh yes... you might like this link:

George Carlin on Baseball and Football

 

Fat guys? I've seen very few fat guys that are racers. I'm not trying to be offensive here, but I would wager that you don't really know much about racing. Race drivers have to be in good shape. Race cars are not easy to drive. Driving a race car is nothing like driving a passenger car; they really abuse you and driving one for any length of time takes a lot of stamina. Almost all successful professional race drivers are in fantastic physical condition. They're probably in better condition than many baseball players. I've seen guys in good condition get out of a their cars after a 30-lap, 15 minute sprint car race completely exhausted and drenched in sweat...on a cold night. I've also seen guys that are not in shape actually drop out of the race because they got too tired and couldn't continue. We're not talking a 4-hour NASCAR marathon either. These are short races on a 1/2 mile race track. Would you say that Michael Shumacher, Fernando Alonso, Jeff Gordon or Tony Stewart are fat, out of shape guys? I don't think so. A fat guy won't even fit in an Indy car or an F1 car. I've driven a sprint car before and trust me, it's not easy.

I believe that racing in any form qualifies as head-to-head competition. There are just more competitors at one time.

As for measuring the winner. The first guy to cross the finish line after the alloted number of laps is the winner. It doesn't get any more conclusive than that.

 

My father raced against unknowns like Bobby and Al Unser -- that is until he left the track at 180 mph. He retired a bit earlier than they did.

Note in rule 1: "Anything powered by anything other than the human athlete qualifies the competition as an event."

Racing is not a sport. It is an event. There are winners and losers at events.

 

@T2Bruno I love the link. Thank you I needed a good laugh.

By the way, I thought I was being very sporting... and brave to enter into this discussion.

But what do I know I'm that rare things a USA Soccer/EuFootball Fan. Love that Sport.

PS: one small comment re USA Football. It is the only sport I can think of where the guys look totally different off field and out of uniform than they do when playing.