Which action makes a Fallen Paladin?

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One my player obviously doesn't know how to play Paladin right, he do all kind of stuff that would normaly be forbidden by Paladin oath. Plus his attitude is more of a Chaotic good aligment,
and he did many strange thing for a paladin also

First: He accepted working for a Smuggler, the team had to escort illegal merchandise to a northen island.

Second: He helped his friend escape from a prison

Third: He lied to Druid asking for help

Fourth: He drank many ale to the point of being drunk, about 3 times

With that should he become Fallen?

At first he wanted to be a Cavalier-like fighter. A sort of Noble fighter mounted on a horse fighting for Good. But with his act and his Chaotic good Behaviour he shouldn't be a Paladin.

[ November 23, 2003, 21:09: Message edited by: Blackthorne TA ]

 

1. Not Paladin-y behavior.

2. Not Paladin-y behavior.

3. Not Paladin-y behavior.

4. Not becoming of a Paladin, but not too serious.

The first three are against the Paladin's code, because a Paladin must respect legitimate authority (I assume the authorities here are legitimate), and because a Paladin can't lie, steal, cheat, etc.

The fourth is just a bad example of a Paladin. It's like watching your respected coach or your teacher get wasted at a party.

However, none of these are actually evil acts, so it's really up to you whether he "falls" or not. I suggest either a novice Paladin or perhaps a Latern Archon following the Paladin, taking notes ( ), a reprimand from his deity or from a fellow Paladin, or just talking to him out of game.

 

Hmm... I have a strange feeling that he really doesn't get it.

I could think about situations justifying #1 and #2, but well... I doubt it was some Amkethran were authorities are far from legitimate and smugglers are working to help the starving local people. Or was it? Or was the friend completely innocent and did the paladin have sufficient proof (to himself even, not the court) of his innocence while an urgent current need required the friend to be free and operational, or was he in danger in that prison?

If there's at least one 'no', he deserves some serious butt-kicking. Hehe, Oaz has some nice ideas, as always

Note that you can't Fall him permanently until he does something evil.

 

No and No, He knew he waqs a smuggler and working for him didn't help the population either.

His friend had commit theft on a local merchant.

But I might just give him a warning though he his still a young knight...

 

How does a Paladin become fallen?

By being in a campaign that I'm DMing!

For further explanation, refer to the Evil DM topic in this forum.

 

Just Fall him until he repents

Or wait, no. You're the DM so you can't second guess yourself openly Wait until his next transgression and Fall him until he repents. Don't make him return the friend to the prison or deal with the smugglers, but make it a thorn in his arse. Congrats, you have a brand new subplot

 

Tell him about it out of game.

He's probably playing a Paladin for the "cool bonuses" over a regular Fighter, without knowing how to play a Paladin.

Let him make the decision.


If you want to let him know in game, have him recieve messages from his chosen Deity in a dream, and if he's really bad, have him start getting dreams from the god of lies or thieves or something most definitely non paladin like.

 

It's not mentioned in 3E, but in 2E paladins lost part of their powers in such cases, without losing their status. Sometimes they lost them permanently, if need be. In one book I read (something by Poul Anderson, don't remember the title), the guy's hands went under a sleeping girl's blouse and so he lost the healing touch.

 

*disclaimer or whatnot*
I'm no expert on this, never played PnP even but...

If it's 3E, make the actions change his alignment slightly towards chaotic and/or evil. Thus, if it goes under the bar for Lawful or Good, he can't level up as paladin anymore. That's kindof what fallen paladin-ness seems like in the NwN manual

 

Likewise, I'm no expert, but the ideas put forward with warnings from deities, and gradually losing powers seem pretty cool to me. Not only does it give the player the chance to mend his ways, but it integrates the problem into the game world.

Another thing I like about chev's idea is the punishment being appropriate to the transgression - wandering hands cease being healing hands. Maybe you could do something like that, e.g. for the lying his diety (or the god of lies) gives him a charisma hit (people who talk to him get a sense that he is a liar - maybe the diety specifically makes his voice and appearance more weaselly, or maybe just instils a general sense of mistrust). Or perhaps the diety could weaken some of his truth-finding abilities such as detect evil.

EDIT: If you want to tell him ingame, without appearing to second-guess yourself, there are a few excuses you could try. Maybe you could take away powers he hasn't used and wait until he tries to use them before he discovers they're missing - then say they had been revoked all along, he just didn't know because he hadn't tried to use them. Or you could have a mortal messenger seek him out - of course then you'd have the problem of explaining how the mortal knows about his problem and the deity didn't give him the message immediately - maybe something like this
NPC:"Thank *dietyname* I've found you. The head paladin-guy has been afraid for your soul ever since that dream!
Pally:" Hold up, what dream?"
NPC:"He recieved a message from *dietyname* in a dream, surely you recieved it too?"
Pally:"I had no such dream"
NPC: "Oh dear, then you truly are losing your way...."

[ November 30, 2003, 12:37: Message edited by: Ironbeard ]

 

1. If he has a habit of looking the other direction when evil goes on - goodbye, detect evil powers

Some such idea was present in some d&d book, but I don't remember which one

2. If he fails to protect the weak from evil - goodbye, protection from evil

3. If he fails to do his job when it doesn't pay off, or when he gets too earhtly - goodbye, divine grace

4. If he fails to give proper example - goodbye, aura of courage

5. If he has a habit of getting stoned - goodbye, divine health & cure disease (Oaz is kindly requested to disregard this point )

6. Failure to show proper deference to his patron - goodbye, spells

7. Lack of respect for human life - goodbye, turn undead powers

Another nice idea based on paladin-y legends and tales:

Get him an apparition to fight. An apparition of himself with the bad quality sufficiently stressed, even to the extent of exaggeration. Assign special powers accordingly. Make him piss his pants and make sure he will never forget.

You can also use the Scrooge variant, ie show him his prospects for the future. Show him himself as a vagrant and a thug and dying slowly from alcohol addiction. Bitter and full of grief when recalling his past glorious paladin days.

Next time he tries something like that, you can send a lightning bolt through his chest, leaving him at 1 HP, prior to assigning some nice penalty. He should notice something's gone wrong. If he doesn't, his be the pity.

 

8. Is afraid to face evil (so long as it's a reasonable fight) or does not hone combat training properly: lose Smite Evil (which you never you use, Chev, btw ).

9. Disrespectful toward people or mean towards animals, beasts, etc.: loses mount.

Of course, just suspending all special Paladin abilties (everything from the class except skils and feats) is easier too.

 

Oaz, make a note of all these, just incase chev does something!