2000's Islamic Fundamentalists=1930's Jews

BTA and others, you cannot deny that by some factions the threat is wildly exaggerated. What the terrorists did at 9/11 is about the worst they can ever do barring they manage to get a hold of nuclear weapons, smuggle it smoewhere and manage to set it off but beyond the foreseeable future the threat posed by terrorist is just that, a terrorist threat. I have read plenty of things where some people express an overt or covert fear that muslim hordes will overrun the western world and make them our overlords. That is something that is insinuated by many demagogues and politicians in the US and elsewhere.

That is an exaggerated, even silly threat. Despite our western worlds freedom and seemingly peacefulness almost all of our societies are quite militarized and we are vastly superior to everything else on this world and will remain so for a long long time.

 

That was part of my point, even if for some reason the muslim(/arab) world would unite and declare hostility towards us in the west they would not pose a threat to our civilization. Except of course with the changes our societies might take to meet this threat. For the arab world to even get that far they would need a lot of development during decades and as the anti-western sentiments are held by fundamentalistic conservatives that development would never occur if they were in power. The development it takes for them to become the threat you are talking about would with almost certainity also remove the hate they feel for the western world.

You could say that Germany too needed a lot of development in the 30's and they did, but their development was a rebuilding of what had already been there. In the Arab world there is nothing to rebuild, they need to build from scratch and that takes much longer.

 

I dont feel the least bit threatened by the arabian nations and their military forces.
Even if they band together they dont have a chance against the EU or US in an open conflict (admittetly, I am no expert, but thats what I think). Not at this point in time. Nor do I feel threated by proliferation. If the Islamists know whats good for their homecountries they wont nuke a western city. For if they indeed kill tens of thousands of Americans, or Brits or Spaniards that would surely change our societies - and the outcome would not be favourable for the arabians. They are too smart for that and will instead prefer tactics of attrition, baiting us, let us make the mistakes which will increase hatred in the muslim nations.

The threat, in my opinion, is one of the future. Our nations are inhabited by aging populations. We are becoming fewer. The islamic nations, however, have more than enough children. Plus we have already large muslim communities, growing communities, living in Europe (something I am quite uncomfortable with, to be honest). And I think there are even some to be found in the U.S.
If we manage to 'help' those Islamists painting our civilisation as something that must be destroyed, I fear we will face hordes of fanatics in a few decades, attacking from outside and from within. And we will not have enough economic or manpower to stop them and the governments supporting them, despite hightec military stuff.

Therefore I think its vital to seek a way of coexistence with the moderate muslims now and stop playing into the hands of the fanatics by royaly screwing things up, a la Iraq.

And now, I am on my way to Cologne. Partytime.

 

There is a significant Muslim community in New Zealand and they co-exist happily with the other cultures here. I don't see them as any sort of threat. They are just people. One of them runs the shop where I go and get my paper in the morning and he is a friendly chap who is just doing his job and feeding his family. He is causing less bother than the yobbos who drive their souped up cars up and down my street in the middle of the night.....but now I'm getting off-topic. He certainly isn't plotting to blow up New Zealand so I have no need to feel threatened by him.

 

The problem with muslims is not with the common man, but with their religeous leaders, like the Imams, the ones that lead the fridayafternoon Mosque sessions. They have A LOT of influence on the majority of the muslim community, which is, as we all know, a deeply religeous community. Every word coming from an Imam, is regarded wise, therefore it's good to know for us westerners what we're dealing with here.

For example: the Dutch Justice department got some tips about several Imams, who used their sessions to preach hate, especially towards Jews, Americans, and gay people. So they hid microphones in some of the mosques in question. The outcome was pretty freaky, they literally preached that every muslim has a holy duty to do whatever is in his/her power to destroy the state of Israel, that American people are legal targets, anywhere, anytime, and that gays were lower lifeforms than pigs, and should be banned from society, or worse.

The hidden mics were in at least one Mosque in Rotterdam, where a Imam El Moumni was asking for support in his crusade against gays, and right here in Utrecht, where an Imam was preaching hatred towards Jews.

Lovely bunch, aren't they ? They got away with a warning, and the message that if it would happen again they would be thrown out of the country. But at least we got a clear view of what goes on inside those mosques on a friday afternoon. And it wasn't pretty.

I'm not saying that all Imams are like this, but one or two of em could be enough to start something really bad. Especially since the deeply religeous muslims take the imam's word for granted. Some rotten apples among the Imams use that for their own sick purposes.

 

The Jews were a scapegoat for Hitler and his followers and they treated them like the lowest possible lifeform by torturing and oppressing them beyond belief. Islamic extremists already live with oppression and torture by their own governments and "princes". The Jews just wanted to be left to live in peace. I think Islam is the bane of all organized religions. It is a selfish, brutal, and male dominated lifestyle that i can hardly see any spritual benefit from. They should hope and pray they are right about what they believe in, because if there is a hell and Satan, he has a lot of Islamic buddies who traits include hatred, killing of the innocent, and there proud princes and kings raping 12 year-old girls in there palaces. And just for the record Catholics are blasphemous faux-martyrs as well. Im not Jewish. May God be with us all and the Beast forever fought against. Peace.

 

@Naug

If that isn't the most loaded, stereotipical, and prejudiced pile of drivel I have ever read/heard, I do not know what is. I suggest you take those words back as they are racially charged and morally wrong. You are obviously ignorant towards my religion and my people. To judge a whole people only through rumor and its radicals is not only blatantly wrong but stupid.


Back to the topic:

As a Muslim Arab-American, I feel that I have insight on both sides of the issue. While I do believe in and support my fellow Palestinians and Iraqis in their plight, I in NO way condone their brutal methods and acts of terrorism. Same goes for the US. While I understand the American government's need to protect their interests, I feel that their foreign policies towards both its enemies AND allies is distorted and corrupt.

Both use what they think to be effective strong-arm tactics. All their policies towards each other do is harbor and cultivate animosity on either side of the fence. What is needed now is not violence, but a deft political touch that characterized the Reagan administration. What is needed now are not acts of terrorism, but peaceful protests against the occupation of Arab land.

[ April 11, 2004, 13:42: Message edited by: Vengeance Incarnate ]

 

Naug, I think all organized religions, heh, all religions is making a pretty good job in being the bane of religion with their inherent wickedness. Too bad people are too stupid to see it.

 

BTA,

I wouldn't like to appear I did put words in your mouth, I wasn't. When I used the "You" in my post it was meant in a general way, and not to adress anything you said. Sorry for that, I'll try to avoid that by using "one" for the future.

Fair enough. I'd still like to persuade you though

I wanted to point out how the the very one-sided US foreign policy of the , not only but especially, last three years - the blanco cheque for Israel - is a thing the Arabs are very angry about. That makes them feel sympathy for everyone wo resists the US. They tolerate the terrorists because they feel it is *retribution* - like: "So want? Aren't the US injust too? They close their eyes over Israels atrocities but make abig fuss about Saddam and now about Syria and Iran?" But that doesn't make them fundamentalists.
This reaction is the effect of the piss poor performance of the US in the middle east, especially their failure to find a credible stance on Israel. It should give you a hint on how frustrated they are about US double-talk and double-standards.

As I said, a change is needed. *One* cannot decree his will on 1 billion muslims and expect them to basically say "Yessir!" They want to have a say in their affairs, and when they feel reduced to pawns on the US chessboard of imaginary "Greater Middle-East", the place where the neo-cons play their grand Great Game II, they are pissed off and resist.

Arab solidarity is a thing often underestimated and misunderstood. Muslim charity and mutual help are stressed in Islam. That is, muslims will compassionately take sides for their fellow muslims when they feel they are unfairly or brutally treated by Israel or the US. And even when it is about dealing with an ass like Saddam, they react pridictable that way: "He maybe a sorry SOB, but he is an arab SOB, so you outsiders please stay out! Or else ... !!!"

The Bush Jr. approach is basically to decree on people half around the earth and expect them to nod and say amen only because it is the US speaking, and because the US have really big guns.

As said, the US need to adress arab grievances to be able to achieve an improvement in the middle east affairs.
As long as the US haven't adressed the problem of Palestine Arabs will predicatably, and with a boulder of truth, doubt their honesty.

[ April 11, 2004, 14:55: Message edited by: Ragusa ]

 

Yeah all organized religons are b.s. i agree. I believe in god but i dont take christians to be perfect. there are tons of christian hypocrites out there and christian nuts. so dont think im some soapbox racist know-it-all, im not. For how long ive seen wars over in the mideast because they all can't live with each other unless they all believe in the same diety, i stand by my views. Islamic extremism is vile and its a shame they cant just be happy without making sure everyone else shares in there beliefs. They hate the jews as bad as the S.S. Waffen in 1939. Im not anti-islam. I just dont think the religion is the cat's meow. sorry dude from UAE

 

Umm...as a Muslim, living in a Non-Muslim state (India) which has loads of other muslims (largest Muslim community after the majority of Hindus), I thought I could probably add my two cents to the discussion, though I seem to be quite late.

Firstly, what I say is my opinion alone, please do not take it to be the views of the Muslim community as a whole. Also, please do not flame me for what I might/ not say.

Earlier someone mentioned the Shi'ite/SHi'a thing...its Shi'a. And the other faction is Sunni(s), not Sunni'tes.

As someone before me has already mentioned, there was large sympathy from the Muslim community towards the Islamists. That is true. What is also true, is the fact that those fundamental Islamists form a very small part of the Muslim community at large.

However, regarding the point of us Muslims having sympathies with the 9/11 bombings...

Note: The Quran and Mohammed (pbuh) have expressly forbidden any violence by Muslims towards anyone else. However, violence HAS been allowed when there is cause for self-defence, either for one's own person, family, or for the community at large. The violence Muslims might resort to, (termed as Jihad) is seen by Muslims as self-defence of the solidarity and freedom for the Muslim community.

With the present situation in mind, most people back in India (which is a non-muslim country, mind you) feel that the United States is a bully of a nation which plays God with the domestic matters of half the countries in the world, exercising its influence for no reason whatsoever, but to maintain its supremacy as a superpower. They also feel that America may be correct in "waging a war on terrorism" like Mr.Bush put it, but they have NO RIGHT to interfere in the affairs of another country.

Saddam Hussein was a tyrant and a dictator. True...but what business is it of the United States' to interfere with Iraq? What business does it have to wage a war on Iraq to "confiscate weapons of mass destruction" (which were never found...but that is not the point) with the United Nations EXPRESSLY saying that it did not want America to go ahead with its plans?

America effectively showed the UN the middle finger and went ahead doing what it wanted to. Also, the most shameful part of the whole thing is that the UN did nothing to prevent America. That is the state to which things have come to. The US effectively rules the world.

I realise that I am going to be nevertheless flamed for what I am posting, but the issues we Muslims have, and the rest of the people as well who don't live in Europe, Australia or America, need to be explained.

In reference to what PacMan said...not true. Imams do exercise a notable amount of influence, but from my personal experience, it doesn't amount to much. At one point, when the US troops were in Afghanistan, trying to rout Al Qaeda, there were regular sermons on the part of the Imams inciting the Muslim youth to join the "Holy Warriors fighting for the future of Islam" in Afghanistan. Needless to say, none took them up.

As far as why the Arab nations and Muslims at large have sympathies with the fundamentalists is concerned, the US has a nasty habit of interfering with the matters of other countries, rather like an uninvited guest. If you will take an objective look at reports from Iraq right now, almost EVERYONE is telling the US troops to go back to the United States. They don't want them there, and they feel that they have worn out their welcome.

It is unrealistic to expect that the US ousted Saddam Hussein with the best interests of the Iraqi people at heart. If that WAS the case, then they would have left when the people of Iraq made it crystal clear to them that they were not welcome. (Pelting the troops with stones might count as a clear way of telling someone to go home.)

It is also the public opinion in Arab countries and especially in India, that the ongoing conflict between Palestine and Israel has been largely prolonged due to US interference.

Americans need to understand that the Muslim people are not subject to the same jurisdiction that they seem to exercise over the rest of the world. They're religion doesn't allow it.

On the other hand, I would personally attribute a lot of the US' recent problems to Mr. Bush. I noticed for myself, that when Mr.Clinton was in office, there were little problems of this nature. This I feel, reflects strongly on Mr. Bush's capabilities as President.

I realise that it is wrong to sympathise with the deaths of thousands of innocents. But the patience of the Muslims people is wearing thin. They cannot tolerate the US bossing them around, and the fundamentalists are taking extreme steps to let this be known. (Examples would be the US occupying Saudi Arabia from the last few decades and exercising unfair strongarming of the Arab nations using economic sanctions[Iraq])

There is already support to the fundamentalist Islamic groups in Pakistan, and in the future, this can only be expected to escalate. This is all held to be obvious truths by the common man in India and I am just repeating them here.

It was not my intention to offend anybody who might read this. All I wanted was to state my opinion, and that of the general public in India and other Arab countries, which I know of, having either personally experienced it, or having relatives living in those Arab countries.

I would like to strongly remind you again to think twice before you start flaming me. I'd really appreciate it if you didnt.

 

Greetings Faraaz.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to flame you...you speak clearly and add positive feedback to this thread. I hope you continue to post in a "no flame" zone. Don't have too many flamers here, mostly people who can disagree, but respect others opinion in a peaceful way...besides, if anyone flames you, I'll kill em'.

You are not the first Muslim whom I have heard speak that Islam is a religion of peace and non-violence...yet I continue to hear Islamic "experts" (they are non-muslim, btw) quote all the direct and glorifed acts of violence, chapter and verse (or is that "surra"), that are found in the Quran. I am curious what your answers would be to the following simple questions...

Based on what the Quran says:

1. Who is an infidel?
2. Who is a hipocrit?
3. What is to be the fate of infidels and hipocrits?
4. What is the fate of a faithful muslim who aids the infidels and hipocrits to attain that fate?

Anyway, always wondered how muslims with the "one and only" Quran can say it says drastically different things. I can look at the Christian community as a whole and see that we have our fanatics, fundamentalists and nut-cases...who use the Bible to support racism, anti-semitism, genocide, polygamy...whatever...but they receive NO sympathy from the rank and file Christians, regardless of denomination. This situation, by your own observations, is the opposite in the muslim world.

Also, I would challenge your (I assume it would be "Arab-ish" ) perspective on some recent world events, for instance

Neither of those observations are accurate...to call our military bases in Saudi an occupation is untrue, and Iraq was under sanctions from the beloved UN, not the USA...we always wanted tougher sanctions or more action against Saddam. And remember...Iraq was under santions for invading and occupying Kuwait...a neighbor and fellow muslim nation. In fact, the US "occupation" of Saudi didn't really begin until we (and the rest of the world), began the military buildup for the liberation of Kuwait.

Hope you don't feel flamed. Looking forward to your response.

 

HacknSlash, let your fundamentalistic christian fight back with dirty means towards a force of overwhelming power mostly composed of muslims whom even you as a more moderate christian find is meddlesome and threathening and lets see how loud you complain about your misguided but albeit fellow christians fight back towards impossible odds.

That is the situation as perceived by most muslims. The US is not seen as the beacon of hope and liberty in most of the world but as the undisputed hegemon and ruler of the world. A power which doesnt have an all too kind eye towards the muslim world.

As for me? As of yet I would still side with the US but I am more afraid of the christian fundamentalistic right in the US than the fundamentalistic muslims, however, that right is still kept somewhat in check even though it is very uncomfortable to see them have as much power as they have today. Five fundamentalistic christians with nukes are more dangerous than one million fanatic muslims in the desert with handarms. Religion should be eradicated from the face of the earth, one issue I am becoming more and more authoritarian on.