3.5 ed. - Wizard vs Sorcerer

Remove all ads!

Well, the Dragon Disciple was created with the sorcerers draconic background in mind. But it lacks a spellcasting progression. That means it is only fitting for bards or fighters/sorcerers and the like.

The best PrCs for sorcerers are those which have a unbroken spellcasting progression and broaden the spell selection somehow. The 'Rainbow Servant' from 'Complete Divine', the 'Mage of the Arcane Order' from 'Complete Arcane' and the 'Exalted Arcanist' from the 'Book of Exalted Deeds' are such PrCs.

Others worth looking into:
Complete Arcane:
Alienist: A conjurer of things. Prone to be mad.

Argent Savant: Force Specialist

Blood Magus: The name says it all. Uses blood instead of a spells material component

Elemental Savant: Choose one element and blast everything away. Downside: All elemental based spells will do damage with the chosen energy form. It reduces the versability.

Fatespinner: Change your luck, i.e. your die rolls.

Wild Mage: Have faith in your luck. It can strengthen the power of your spells.
Rather steep requirements for sorcerers.


Complete Divine:
Void Disciple: Scry on others, grant allies extra abilities and change your die rolls.


Sandstorm
Sand Shaper: It does not have the full spellcasting progression and is prone to modification (because of the desert theme), but it does get additional spells.


I don't know whether you will play in the Forgotten Realms, but if you do, I suggest these:

Players Guide of Faerun:
Incantatrix: Additional metamagic feats are always welcome. Especially if you get to use them without the extra time.

Shadow Adept: Your spells are harder to recognise and dispel by weave users.

Magic of Faerun (It's 3.0, so the classes have to be modified):
Guild Wizard of...: Access to a spell pool. Very handy.

Harper Mage:
Full spellcasting progression and other handy special talents. Including using "Extend Spell" without extra time.

War Wizard of Cormyr: Additional metamagic feats, but steep requirements for a sorcerer.


As I said before, there are not that many PrCs for sorcerers. WotC has a rather neglecting attitude towards the class.

 

I'd like to emphasise the SUCKTITUDE of the dragon disciple as a pure caster prestigeclass. You only gain bonus spells, no caster progression. This means that as a Sorcerer10/Dragondisciple10, you still have a casterlevel of 10. Your maximum spell-level is still the same as at Sorcerer10.

The class is decent for gish (fighter/mage) builds that use the bard or sorcerer class in combination with fighter classes like ranger, fighter, paladin. But for pure casters it is bad bad bad. A general rule is not to give up casterlevels when possible. Losing one, okay. Two, not that great. Three, this'll get bad quick. Anything from four casterlevels missed and on, when playing a primary caster, is a pain in the behind.

 

Well, for someone who's playing a sorcerer for the first time, I feel DD is perfect and that's why I suggested it. Considering the benefits that the class provides, it works well with a pure spellcaster. Also, DD is one of the prestige classes that can go beyond level 10 and is much easier to get the prerequitsites for it. What sorcerer doesn't have Knowledge: Arcana maxxed out anyway?

I also mentioned looking for classes that add to your caster level, which is easily found in any of the DnD books.

 

It wasn't my intention to flame you, in case that's what it seemed like. If so, I apologize.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. A pure spellcaster is going to want to have full casterlevel progression, because otherwise he's stuck to low-mid level spells, his spells are easily dispellable by casters with full casterlevels, his spell variables (like 1d6 damage per level) will be lower.

The benefits the class provides, are not at all THAT useful for a sorcerer
+3 Natural AC
+4 Strength
+2 Constitution
+2 Intelligence
Claw and Bite attack
Breath Weapon 4d8
Blindsense 60ft
Wings
Dragon Apotheosis.

Looking at that, there's a multitude of abilities that are only really useful to a fighterish build. Sure, +2 con is nice. +4 strength and claw/bite is hardly ever useful as a full spellcaster. The Breathweapon, while nice for flavour, is easily matched by a single spell. None of this is worth losing 10 casterlevels over.

I like the class for flavour, but if you're looking at it from an optimization point of view with the intent of building a powerfull primary caster, it's horrid solely because of the lack of casterlevel progression. The other bonusses you get don't weigh up to it because of their lack of appropriate usefulness. For a fighter/sorcerer build the class is wonderful. For a full sorcerer, not so.

Flavourwise, the Dragon Disciple and the Acolyte of the Skin are the best classes out there in my opinion. Which makes it all the more of a shame that mechanically they're built bad for full casters. Which is too bad, because it really doesn't encourage people taking flavourfull classes, but going for "lack of flavour but compensation in power" prestige classes like Incantatrix or Eldritch Knight.

 

With Dragon Disciple you could take the feat 'Practised Spellcaster' which allows a 4 level dip into the PrC without loosing caster levels. Still, the DD is suboptimal for a pure sorcerer.

By the way, the flavor of the incantatrix is about gaining power. So I see no problem there.

 

True, practiced spellcaster gives you back 4 casterlevels, but it doesn't give you the two levels of spells you've lost due to lack of spellprogression. You'll be stuck with 4th spells as a max instead of 6th for example. That is my major problem with the class.

Incantatrix was supposed to be an anti-outsider specialist that somehow got lumped in with metamagic specialist. But yeah, now its flavour is purely power. ever been to the wizards.com optimization boards? I've yet to see a wizard thread where it's not said "go wiz5/incantatrix10/whatever"

 

In short, are there any prestige classes that add caster levels, are "in-role" for a light/shadow specializing CG (or close thereto) sorcerer and a conservative-slash-bitchy DM won't throw out the window? I mean a more or less believable, and "established" one? I'd rather not have to buy 20 books just so I can look at the prestige classes sections.

 

The Shadow Adept from Player's Guide to Faerun (or the FRCS for 3.0 ed) comes to mind. Then there's the Shadowcraft Mage from Races of Stone (only for gnomes or those with the gnome version of the stoneblessed prc) or the Shadowmage from Underdark (faerun book)

That's some off the top of my head before I have to run for work. Maybe I've got some more later.

 

In know. Most of the guys in Wizards Character Optimation Boards are lunatics.


@The Shaman: A shadow/light-combination is not possible. You can only get one of both.

The shadow options were mentioned by Faragon.

A "light" mage is essentially an evoker. The only PrCs that fit are the 'Exalted Arcanist' from the 'Book of Exalted Deeds'(expecially with some of the feats and spells in that book) or the 'Elemental Savant' from 'Complete Arcane with a specialization in fire. But since fire is the most used energy form, there are myriads of creatures out there who are resistant to it.

 

There are feats in Sandstorm which allow you to do more damage against fire resistant and fire immune creatures though, if you're set on being a pyromaniac

 

No, I mean light/shadow not as prestige classes or anything, just as spell selection guides - and since sorcerers are spellcasters by talent/blood instead of book, it seems interesting to me. IE, take prismatic spray, obscuring mist, shadow conjuration etc. Of course, there may be the occasional fireball etc. too... the temptation is just too strong
Anyway, are the shadow conjuration/evocation spells good for a sorcerer? I find the versatility useful, and was planning on getting a focus in illusions anyway, but the extra save is a bother. Then again, if the party knows that fireball is a "fake", that minimizes eventual friendly "fire" issues.
(Of course, the dwarven barbarian doesn't know that. Weeeell, his problem - he's got d12 base hp anyway)

 

Shadow conjuration and evocations are GREAT for a sorcerer. They allow for a lot more versatility. And when you go into the earlier mentioned shadowmage prestigeclasses, it can be quite powerful even

 

I agree. But be careful with this barbarian. Might be he chooses to rage at you.

 

Yeah, I'd avoid partymembers getting caught in friendly fire. (Note: friendly fire is never friendly) Unless of course, you've given the barbarian some spiffy fire resist buffs

 

Well, I will take all care, but it's just he's not the brightest guy around...
Anyway, if I let my party know that I'll be casting a shadow evocation, and for some reason they get caught in a fireball blast/whatever, they should automatically get their Will saves, right? I mean, they should disbelieve it if I have told them.

 

Code words seem to work well in such situations. You don't want to give away your tactics to the opponent.

Never tried it myself, though.

 

Either that or just flat out tell the party I won't use any real evocations before the fight begins. Of course, fireball is a bit harder to miscast with the grid scheme and everything, but lighting bolt can be a bit tricky. Does it still ricochet off the walls?

Anyway, I'm pretty set about the "light-shadow" theme in the spell selection. The one thing that kinda bothers me that the mindset that goes with going for both would be closer to TN than CG (which I intend to be), but I suppose I will have a long time to think about it... A possible prestige class would be great, but it's very far away. We're starting this weekend. So far the stats are (we decided to have a point basis instead of rolling):

Race: Human
Class - Sorcerer
Alignment - CG
Str - 08
Dex - 14
Con - 14
Int - 12
Wis - 10
Cha - 18

Skills:
Bluff - 4
Spellcraft - 4
Concentration - 4
Craft (Alchemy) - 2
Knowledge (Arcana) - 2
Possibly Diplomacy - 1, in which case I will only have 2 ranks in spellcraft... I will likely be the face of the party, although I'm thinking about counting only on the Cha bonuses and on synergy with Bluff later on. Does synergy count as a +2 bonus per 5 points of the skill or a +2 bonus for 5 or more (even if 30) ranks of the skill?

Anyway, more on the character:
Familiar - Raven
Feats - Improved initiative, Combat Casting (any suggestions? I thought about getting spell foci for evocation and illusion and brew potion later)

 

Combat Casting is a horrible feat that should only be taken if it's a prerequisite for a prestigeclass. And even then you should beg your DM to be allowed to take Skill Focus Concentration instead I'd definetely take Spell Focus Illusion and Evocation instead of Combat Casting. Improved Initiative is always a good option, for any character.

Knowledge Arcana, Concentration and Spellcraft are all three skills you want maxed. If you want to take diplomacy along, I'd say put the points from alchemy into it. Alchemy, sadly, is a skill that hardly sees use.

It's a +2 synergy bonus from 5 ranks and up. If you have 30, it's still +2.

 

Unfortunatly, Combat Casting is used as a prerequisite to a lot of PrCs. But you could take 'Negotiator' or something like that instead. It improves your social skills.

As for the attributes, I'd reccomend taking 16 on CHA and 16 on DEX, if you use a lot of spells that require a ranged touch attack. (Like the orb spells from Complete Arcane) You'll hit better.

 

I would have higher con and dex if I could, but I'd rather not decrease my other stats too much...