A Man of Courage

Remove all ads!

Still, joacqin, while I understand how you think and how you come to your assessment I rather doubt that your outlook on religious matters is profound or differentiated enough.

The problem is not religion - it is people. Religion is just a convenient tool for them to reach their aims. Strip religion away from the ayatollahs and you still have an elite caste that strives for power and is willing to kill for the conservation of their power.

Do you think the people in theocracies follow their leaders because they love their doctrine? Not really! They follow their leaders because the doctrine is enforced. With a sharp stick.

In other cases it is not even about religion but rather about economy, natural ressources, etc. Religion is just a false pretence.

Religion has been abused throughout the history of humankind. It is the victim, not the culprit. But what if religion wasn't there? If everyone knew for a fact that there is no god? Well - we would still live in the same world. The same wars in a different context. Because humans love to point fingers at other humans. And they are willing to adopt any kind of argumentation to show how they are better than the others. Better than the foreigners. Better than the neighbors.

Catholics are especially fond of pointing their fingers and shouting "look at that punk", true enough. But this is hardly the fault of the Pope. We have a saying in Germany. If someone is overly keen on talking about the sins of others, we say that he is more Catholic than the Pope.

Preorating: exactly how does the Pope dictate how people should live together. Does he send out the Swiss Guard? No, no. He makes a proposition. He tells us how he feels someone should live. Listening to him should not turn you into a raving lunatic. Listen to him if he hits your nerve, ignore him otherwise. Do you feel the Pope has power over your life? Certainly not.

 

Well of course, which I find it so despicable hypocritical when political leaders take the guise of clergyhood to better subdue and control the ignorant and superstitious masses. And people love it! They want to have someone to tell then that there are something looking out for them and which is telling them how to live their lives and that their leaders have a direct channel. Religion is not a victim, it is more or less a prerecquisite.

Millions of people are brainwashed since birth to believe what one man edict is more or less coming straight from the mouth an omniscient omnipotent divine being. That gives him power, indirectly even over us who see him as a mere reactionary bigoted old man in silly hats.

I believe that without religion we might not have a perfect world but there would be one less thing to fight over. That and I think progress and the like would go that much rapidly without people spending time wondering what the old man in the clouds think of their actions.

 

Some of the greatest contributors to our human civilization have been persons who have lived with an unyeilding Faith in an "old man in the clouds", and today you enjoy the benefits of their endeavors in every facet of your life...

Far more than you are afflicted by them.

 

Yes but there are as many if not more made by people who had cast off their superstitiouns and let themselves be ruled by reason in an age where magic and spirits ruled. Imagine what the people you talk about HS could have accomplished if they hadnt been shackled by superstitions and been able to think freely and "outside the box"?

 

I'm not sure I'd call him a man of courage, but then to be honest I know little about him.
I'm more than willing to say he is a man of uncompromising principals and he will always be true to his own beliefs, which I have great respect for, but I'm not sure that it is a good trait in a leader that they would never be able to admit they might be wrong on an issue. In that respect I see parallels between GB2 and JP2.

 

Now I'm the last person I'd expect to put an argument forth for the Church (seeing as I hate even going to the occassional mass and all the hypocrisy of many catholics, myself among them sometimes) but believing in a higher power doesn't neccessarily limit your ability to think "out of the box". It gives you a security blanket is all.

I completely agree with this statement. Or at least ORGANIZED religion should be done away with.

 

Well, that wasn't an argument. And you grasped it completly. That's how AIDS is spread in Africa and the reason why so many villages were/are/will be wiped out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/545033.stm

 

Doing away with religion won't make it any harder for people to find reasons to kill, maim, persecute, or otherwise harm other people.

See: USSR, PRC, Nazi Germany. For extreme examples.

 

Ah but they had religion, just not any deities. They had lifted up political ideaology to a religion. It is really the blind and unquestioning faith in ludicrous things which are the problem, need not nescessarily be a deity.

 

Joacqin, Why do I think it's not so much the doctorine of the faith but the abuse of the Name of God that draws your ire?

The doctorine outlines a moral code, from major prohibitions to advice on how to live a better life. When abused, it leads to great attrocities done in the Name of God. In the Lord's Prayer, which many children are forced to learn by repetition, it acknowledged that forgiveness of our sins depends on our ability to forgive others. Why then, should we kill in His sacred name? Hey Satan, Meet your new Roommate, Torquamada (sp?)...

While the faithful are encouraged to teach their beliefs to all, they must realize that conversion must be the choice of the individual. Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still...

Use the whole quote, not just what suits your purpose. Remember that the line "Judge not, lest ye be judged" also warns us that we ourselves will be judged in the same way that we judge others. If I call you a jerk and base my decision on what someone else says about you, I can expect that when I am judged, it will be based off of a randomly solicited opinion. And how many toes have I stepped on along the way? "Eye for an Eye" ende up with the line that says "Vengeance is mine, Sayeth the Lord". People that seek retribution in God's name sin because it will be God that exacts retribution, and doesn't need our help there. Sorry Mr. President, you'll need another flimsy excuse to invade some small country that pisses you off...

My point is, Don't judge the faithful by the hypocrite. The Lord Gave the commandment that we not take the name of God in vain for a reason. He new that His name would be taken to give legitimacy to some truly horrible things. Things that make Joacqin and millions of others question the validity of His laws.

Further, read the WHOLE Bible if you seek to call yourself a true authority. The Apostle Paul, in a Letter to Timothy, basically states that required Celebacy is a lie (1 Tim 4:3)...

I am a Mormon, and as such, believe that the Mortal Leader of God's chosen flock is in Salt Lake City, Utah, and Not the Vatican, but I cannot fault the Pope for living as he believes, and thus agree with the title of "Man of Courage".