Abdel - The Shapeshifter

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The refinements shapeshifter fix is outstanding and definitely not for power-gamers. That's the fix I use. I don't think refinements is mirrored at SP. You can get it over at Spellhold Studios

[ February 04, 2006, 05:09: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

If I understand the site right the paws are something you equip which goes for cheese because that just plain cuts around the bug that we have to exploit in the core game altogether.

They've added in a heal affect when you switch back which is more cheese and highly abusable and not realistic for the shape shifter form.

Sure you can't talk in their version and it takes a round but those really aren't really drawbacks really.


It gets worse if you have more of the mod installed with things like Blessing of Nature as an HLA. Which is a requirement for Tranquility.

And combining even one of those two let alone both with Feral Spirit is just outright overboard.

My high level Shape Shifter Druid already has 80% in every elemental resistance as well as Magical Fire and Magical Ice. Further increasing their bonuses just plain puts them through the roof. Fireballs. Incindiary clouds. Other things they will either be completely immune or even gain hitpoints back for standing in these spells. When I can cast 7 Fire Storms in quick succession and then stand in them. That is just outright sick and wrong.

So yes. It is rather unbalanced. Not so much in only the one component but when combined with others it is out there and over the top. I've looked at the Refinement mod in the past. The potential is not quite as bad as the outright power gaming flipout of the shape shifter rebalancing mod. But it is still way out there.

 

Actually, you are supposed to get slightly healed when shapeshifting back. It's from Pnp. You don't equip the claws. What they are talking about is removing the exploit where a druid can shapeshift and wield his own weapons anyway after someone casts dispel magic. In all seriousness, characters become weaker, not stronger with the refinements HLA system. For example, while powerful, the Refinements shapeshifter takes a full round (!) to shapechange and can't cast spells or talk while changed. Even in the most powerful incarnation of the (post feral spirt HLA) werewolf form, the shapeshifter still won't be able to go toe to toe with a fighter of the same experience level using halfway decent weapons.

 

With what they give I could toe to toe a fighter with half way decent weapons and win if that mod is installed. I can do it now and that just gives me more that I can do it with. My shape shifter is core game right now and Cernd in his GW form stands up to more stuff than my wizard slayer does.

They don't need to heal when shifting back. But maybe Felinoid can chime in on that little bit if he is paying attention to the thread.

The primary thing though is that they didn't solve the dispelling issue and they instead made the cheese even easier to perform by equipping them yourselves. Just shape change and keep your normal weapon anyway. STaff of the Woodlands is far better afterall.

 

Oh fine. From the PHB, p.52:

However, this is a normal druid changing into normal animals, like a bear, or a bird, or a snake. I never found a Complete Druid's Handbook (and doubt that there is one after the amount of effort I put into finding it ), so I can't speak to the druid kits. IMHO though, supernatural shapeshifts (like werewolves and such) should not have this "natural" healing component.

 

Umm......no they didn't. That's the Ease of use fix. With Refinements, you don't equip the claws yourself and they fixed the dispellable claw issue. (At least as well as the infinity engine allows. If dispel magic is cast on a shapeshifted druid it still dispels the claws for a second, but the claws reappear before you'll even get a chance to use that +12 hackmaster with 22 str and 3 attacks per round.)

Regarding whether or not Shapeshifters should get healing when they change back, that's a judgement call. If 2E has nothing to say about it, I'll gladly point out that, in 3E, lycanthropic changes work just like any other shape change. It's not really a big deal in this case anyway, since the shapeshifter already has enough disadvantages with Refinements installed. The shapeshifter can't shift as a free action like any other druid can. It takes a full round each way.

By the way.....at early levels the werewolf form does have a marked advantage over a wizard slayer. Wizard slayers can't quaff most potions or use most magical items. A single class wizard slayer is weaker than any warrior class in the game for toe to toe combat (even beast masters). Take Cernd up against a dual wielding Minsc and see what happens.

[ February 05, 2006, 11:39: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

Cernd owns Misnc at any level and with Minsc even wielding plus 6 weapons and serious armor...Even at low level. I've watched him obliterate Misnc without breaking a sweat when Minsc has been charmed. He rips right through him. Jsut to let you know. I don't arm my Minsc for his stealth abilities. I put him in the heaviest stuff I can find and never use his stealth abilities.

Minsc can't really lay a hand on my wizard Slayer either even when he's berserked. They don't need most of those potions and things. At this point despite having a 24 natural strength and like 23 Con and Regenerating items besides. I think Cernd would still own my Wizard Slayer with little trouble and my Wizard slayer has knocked the crap out of everything from early on. For a while she was the last thing that would die. That has changed since Cernd broke that level 16 barier. And my Wizard Slayer is higher level. Tossing spells at it is a proposition of "Do you get lucky?"


But reguardless. Those disadvantages that your talking about really aren't disadvantages at all. So you use a second character to do all the talking. MOst of us do that half the time anyway if not more so. Several of the scripts are triggered just by whoever the npc touches first which doesn't have to be your PC and They could never cast magic in the core game so it's a redundant statement. The shape changing time doesn't matter much either because Nobody is going to be changing them back and forth much in combat and a whole 6 to 10 second delay is not saying much.

3rd edition is also a totally different creature from 2nd edition. Other than the setting there is very little that resembles what it once was. When I have to totally and completely relearn a game because they introduced a new edition. Then you know there are vast differences.

 

There's no way you don't have some kind of mod installed that effects the shapeshifter if you experience this. I've opened up the game files and can tell you firsthand that the unmodded werewolf forms just aren't very powerful. The greater wolf form only regenerates _very slowly, a druid gains no more than 20 HP from the shift due to the cap on constitution bonuses, the attack only does 2d6 damage, the elemental immunities aren't even present.....a fighter should rip an unmodded shapeshifter apart. My blade could do it with no buffs using nothing but offensive spin when he was level 15 and Cernd was level 13.

 

And you would be wrong Drew. Litterally I don't even have Balderdash fixpack installed. I have the Monk HLA's of oversight. Which far as I recall none of Oversight has anything to do with the shape shifter. Though I don't use most of it anyway. I have Kelsey. And I have ascension. This is all I have. I do use the one exploit in the fact that I haven't unshape shifted since the drow illusions were taken off and can wield a weapon but that's it and that's a bug that can be exploited in the core game. But he's always been destructive in his Greater Werewolf Form.

Mine just happens to wield the staff of the Woodlands(gotten from Rillifane) which is not the most damaging weapon despite being a +4. Granted GW form does give him 3 attacks. Which is the same ammount that Misnc is capable of.


Some of the elemental immunities are gotten from being a high level druid from what I can tell but he's had elemental immunities ever since he gained the form. The werewolf form alone at level 8 starts with 20% magic resistance though. So perhaps you might want to make one and actually look before you tell me they don't get resistances because guess what.

I have no mods for the shape shifter and Cernd is carrying resistances of a major kind. Part of which are based on the fact that he has a shape shifter form.

Because guess what? Without being in his shape shifter form his various elemental resistances drop to 30%. Which makes sense because he's had like 50% since he got greater werewolf form. He loses all of his magic resistance except 5% which comes from an item. The Poison doesn't change because that's from being a Druid.

So it looks like your wrong. Play one and find out.

Or better yet. Perhaps Abdel can speak on the resistances of his Shape shifter Druid.

 

Try it without exploiting the Bug. Equip him however you want to, otherwise. Have Cernd go toe to toe against Minsc wielding two axes and wearing Full Plate. See what happens. Minsc will have one half an attack more per round and will hit harder than Cernd does when he rages. (20 str from raging, +2 damage for specialisation, +3 damage for his weapon enchantment, +2 more for raging at 3.5 Apr vs 2d6 +Cernd's strength Bonus. Minsc, being a Ranger, will also have more hit points.)In other words, Minsc will hit more often, hit harder, and have more hit points. Without resorting to a bug exploit, (which wouldn't exist with Refinements installed) Cernd doesn't have a chance.

[ February 06, 2006, 03:44: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

I have to agree with everything Drew said...because when I first started BG2 with shapeshifter (only SoA and ToB without even patch) he couldn't even survive simple battle, but after lnstalling patch and several mod with Ease of Use...he was hulking around whole Forgotten Realm without even a scratch on his arm. Also if you don't have EoU installed you don't get WW paw as a weapon or cast spell while in WW shape which means shifted druid is just a midget fighter (not even a fighter because he doesn't even have enough HD to survive a battle).

 

Yeah. I think I'll stick to the core game instead of bending to every little thing to make you right. Even if I'm only using what is in the core game you don't like it.

If you had problems in SoA without even the patch you really can't blame this on what I'm doing. Cernd became one of my tanks before i ever found that particular bug. In fact until recently I didn't know just any dispel would do it. I don't cast any spells from it because the core game can't.

You like the Ring of Regeneration but you don't like the fact that in Greater Werewolf Form a Shape Shifter Druid heals at the same rate as the ring of Regeneration without any items and then you can add more on and make that quicker. hell. Wear the Ring of Gaxx. That will net you a quick 3hp a round as well as a boost to your AC and saving throws.

But when you can get a -1AC in werewolf form and a base ac of -10 in GWW form. Your certainly well protected for not being able to wear armor. In fact your better protected than any other druid in the game in that form. These are great early on AC stats and the druids level up over this gap to the better form the quickest.

The only problem is that a couple of stats over what normal werewolf form gives don't serve you for anything but when your not shape shifted. Namely Dexterity and Constitution. That's no longer a problem once you hit level 13.

 

So the fact that you're "only using what is in the core game" makes it legitimate? In that case, I argue that a Sorcerer with four project images (even though you're only supposed to have one), a Blade with six Mislead images singing Improved Bard Song, a Fighter/Mage using a ranged Celestial Fury with Melf's Minute Meteors, an Archer shooting arrows through walls, and anyone using fake-talk are all more powerful characters than your Shapeshifter. All of the above can be done without modifying the game in any way -- simply playing with the rules that are given in the game engine.

If we're going to merely talk about which character can beat which character while exploiting which bugs, things can get much more nasty than a Greater Werewolf with a big, scary quarterstaff.

 

I have actually said in my posts that Cernd managed to own Minsc in my game before i even found out about the bug. Blade's shouldn't have improved bard song since their bard song never improves. Misleads don't even have the ability to attack though if their wielding the staff of the magi you can click on it and turn your misleads invisible.

Several people do use the Project Image bug that's really not a bug and swear by it. Whether it's with a sorcerer or with regular mages. Imoen seems to be a common one mentioned to use it with actually. If it was a bug it'd be something not normally legal. Sadly they are a spell that can be used in chain contingency with little problem for anybody that actually wants to. Fair or not. A quick dispel magic or true sight and they all vanish right quick. As does targeting the origional caster with say an arrow or something. It has it's weaknesses. Now you could argue that it wasn't meant to be used this way. But then that's an issue of it not being flagged for non use in Chain contingency in much the same way there are a number of spells you can't stick in a regular contingency spell. Now. The recent addition to the tactic of having them all cast shape change into mind flayers to get around the inability to attack is exploiting a bug. Using the Project Images to get around the Summoning Limits is exploiting a bug.

Using Chain contingency your still abiding by the one real limiting factor of the spell. the mage unable to move. You are just using stored magical energies from previous castings to have them all enact at once. You might like to note in the description that while it says that it stops you from moving or acting while the project image is in play there is actually nothing in the spell that limits how many in any way shape or form. it just gives the limit that you can't move or take any actions.

Edwin tends to use the robe of Vecna and a few copies of dispel magic just for a few certain tricks like this when I play. It also helps against those pesky dominate affects.

You want to use a ranged Celestial Fury, Or better yet Flail of the Ages, RuneHammer, Etc. It actually works if you equip most any of the single handed long range weapons in your primary hand and then have an off hand weapon. The first time I heard of this it was talking about using Azure Edge in the primary hand.

And Force Attacking a creature is sadly not a real exploit either. Even though it is power gaming to an extent.


Just to make a few notes though. My Cernd gets more possible damage for a bit less thaco and ac from not using the staff but the claws actually take advantage of the single weapon fighting style. I've been playing around combatting my high level Cernd against my high level Misnc with the Ravager. And I've made sure they get even strength. Minsc has the hitpoints and the thaco. Cernd has the AC and his shape shifting without the exploit. Cernd wins as often as not. If I equip things like Helmet of Baldurun and Gauntlets of weapon expertise to Minsc then he wins a little more often. But they are comparable when the berserk is used and they have comparable strength numbers using their special powers. Two axes would actually weaken Minsc's thaco which is his biggest advantage.

Then again if I wanted to be super mean I'd put the ring of fire elemental control on Cernd. Have him cast stone skin. Have him cast a couple fire storms. Then have him change shape. Stone skins wouldn't last long but the fire spells would heal him. A Nasty little trick that I do not use the way that I use Cernd.

Both would mean I have played by your non-exploit rules. But Minc doesn't heavily own Cernd in my game. and Cernd in my game is wearing none of the regenerating EQ he can wear.

[ February 06, 2006, 14:13: Message edited by: starwalker ]

 

Huh? This is exactly why it's worth taking enhanced bard song with a blade, because it negates their kit weakness. Mislead images can't attack, but they can use their bard song. And it takes effect no matter where the singer is on the map. You can create a whole choir of mislead images, tuck them away somewhere safe all singing their enhanced bard song, and the effects will stack.

Bug, glitch, oversight, call it whatever you will, you're not supposed to be able to project multiple images. Note that projected images can't project images themselves. It's unintentional, even if the possibility of it happening didn't occur to the developers. If you argue that the shapeshifting image thing is a bug, then you have no grounds for arguing that werewolves wielding weapons isn't a bug. They're both programming oversights, as is "fake talk" and using the guard command to allow your ranged attackers to fire at enemies through walls and doors.

Aahz is right, you can't bring glitches into the equation when you're comparing the relative power of different classes, because there's so many ways to exploit the game's limitations that it opens an enormous can of worms.

 

I never said that the Shape Shifters wielding weapons wasn't a bug. Your adding stuff into what I have said that hasn't been said at all. He pointed out other bugs.

And reguardless if you weren't supposed to be able to project multiple images in some way then they wouldn't allow you to link them into a chain contingency. There are plenty of other spells that can't be so this seems like more than an oversight. It's either intentional since the spell doesn't disallow for it in reality. If you can chain contingency other spells to fire off when you cast project image it seems to me they had to give it at least some realistic thought. Calling the specific use of Project image a bug is like saying casting defensive spells to protect and hide your mage the instant that Project Image goes into affect is a bug. What can be done with it afterwards that breaks the rules of the mechanics is the only real problem and something that apparantly was overlooked. If your set up right you can cast an army of summons just with one project image let alone 4. The Shape Shifting Image also breaks a mechanic of the spell and the way it works as well as works around the system. A bug or oversight in the workings of the software.

And your also ignoring the fact that I took the game exploit out and instead of total owning minsc they were now even. Even though Minsc has maxed his profiency in his weapon as well as the chosen style for it.

 

If by 'reality' you mean according to the pen and paper version of the spell, that spell is completely different from the one that exists in BG2. A projected image according to the 2nd edition handbook is strictly an illusion; it doesn't have its own memorised spells and it doesn't act independently, it's just an illusory replica of the magic-user. It doesn't matter how many projected images a magic-user might have, he can only cast one spell out of his own memorised repertoire per round. The fact that projected images in BG2 use their own spells rather than the mage's is already a significant step up here. Allowing a magic-user to create multiple clones that can each cast their own spells, none of which deplete the caster's own supply, is a serious imbalance.

But I don't really care a whit who would win in a fight versus Cernd and Minsc... just saying, you know, condoning use of a glitch in a comparison like this is poor form.

 

Wow guys. Immagine this: Abdel, who made this thread, hasn't posted ever since you took over. Now go figure why .

[ February 06, 2006, 16:12: Message edited by: olimikrig ]

 

In ToB Minsc will have whirlwind or smite. That's why a level 15 shapeshifter dualed to fighter is so dangerous......he will, also. Minsc could wipe out Cernd with a smite and a GWW in ToB. Cernd will have no defense against that, since the Druid HLAs are either spells (useless in werewolf form) or shapeshifting (into forms the shapeshifter wouldn't actually use).

@Olmikrig: probably because he got his answer on the first page......

[ February 07, 2006, 04:53: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

*Buzz* Wrong. IBS is one of the few HLAs from the High Level Campaigns supplement that was adequately implemented. The Blade's normal abilities (the spins and such) OTOH, are utterly and completely screwed up. Still, it's not like everything can be coded to perfection unless you've got an infinite amount of time...which game makers never even get half of.

PI is just another example of this. I'm sure by now they could've figured out a better way to handle it, but then we wouldn't have had and enjoyed the game for so long, now would we? A good rule of thumb: If something's messed up, don't use it!