Abortion

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-Laches, I agree, and I'm sorry if I made it appear as if because of the situation I decribed affects my opinion of all pro-abortionists. Almost all of my friends are in favour of abortion (or refuse to take a stand about it), and they're nothing like that one woman.

-C'Jakob, thanks for clearing that up, I misunderstood what you said, my mistake.

Atreides, no, I have not met a rape victim, but I do not think it would be right to use rape as an excuse to have an abortion. I realize that the emotional pain would be extreme if the rape victim had her child, not to mention the pain the child would experience if s/he ever found out the truth about his/her parentage. But a life is a life, just because it wasn't conceived by choice doesn't mean it can be thrown away like so much trash.

Stefanina, what about murder? Theft? These are immoral and the government outlaws them. Like Jack Funk pointed out, murder and theft can come in very handy, but they're immoral, so they're outlawed.

Forashi, from what I've learned, almost all abortions occur because the mother didn't want to get pregnant. I assume you mean "the mother didn't want to have sex" (a statement which I would understand, but that I don't agree with).

Forashi, the mother chose to get drunk or drugged, thus she chose to accept the consequences of her actions. Who are we to determine what would be in the best interests of a child that has not yet been born?

Viking, as I've said earlier, new-borns don't have experiences, therefore, by your definition, they aren't alive. New-borns don't give love either, however, both they and fetuses receive a lot of love. Fetuses interact with their mothers a lot. By that definition, they are alive.

Capstone, actually a good deal of illegal abortions cause the death of the mother and the child. The death of the mother is an accident of course, but it happens, and it used to happen a lot before abortion was legalized.

Laches, I believe Sprite said that she was referring to both men and women.

On a somewhat related note, I find it amusing how pro-abortionists call themselves "pro-choice," when the only choice they support is the woman's. But on the flipside, there are some "pro-lifers" who go around shooting abortion doctors. Bad choice of names perhaps?

 

They are just people acting under a wrong name, at least a name not corresponding with their actions.

 

But think of all the babies they saved.

 

then their name should be 'pro-baby', not 'pro-life'

 

But that makes it sound like they encourage un-protected sex with virile young females.

Which I don't really have anything against, as long as she enjoys it.

I'm just saying, think of the babies!

YEAH, BABY!!!!

 

I just want to say as a female who has had an abortion and is pro-choice I thank Laches for his wonderful ability to provide such clear and non-emotional representation of the issue and its intricacies.

The choice to kill/let a mother die to save a baby has already occured in Wash. DC :anyone read Backlash?

This issue of 'right to life' is core- where would the line be drawn between mother and fetus? How can it be drawn? - the fetus is dependent.

Imagine the possibilities should abortion be termed as murder: any woman who had a miscarriage would be under suspicion of murder.

Personally, I believe all too often this ends up in what I would call the sexist arena. How many men who are quick to judge women's behavior as irresponsible have held themselves accountable 100%?

Until we can deal equally with men and women as far as sex is concerned this issue will continue to be an equal rights issue. We still only prosecute prostitutes, not their johns. Taking away womans right to choose [to abort] would place women once again in the position of sole accountability/responsibility. The only ones to be imprisoned, thus inequal.

 

Maybe I don't realy understand the term 'pro-choice'.
But can someone be pro-life and pro-choice? I mean: If I had the choice, I should choose life and thus wouldn't agree with an abortion. Under some surcomstances however (like serious problems to the health of the carrying mother), I would choose to do an abortion (and save at least one life, the mother's).

Maybe I misunderstood you, Scarampella, but imho equal rights of women and men have litle to do with wether to choose to do an abortion or not. I would rather look at the circumstances to see I would even have the right to have the abortion occurred. And IF I had the right to do the abortion, then I can choose if I would have let it done or not.

If, for example, I (if I was a woman) was pregnant, but I dont want the child because I want a nice career or dont have the money to raise the child, then I think I wouldn't have the right to do an abortion. The child's right to live is more important to me then my right for a nice career, and thus I shouldnt 'choose'.

Men and women are equal, so why wouldn't women have the right and men do? Men and women both have the responsibilty to care for their child.
(Aargh! It's to bloody difficult for me to express myself, especially in English)

Problem here is that we could discuss when we have the 'right' to choose to do an abortian. I think we never solve this problem, due to personal or religious backgrounds.
Some believe this. Some believe that. And when people believe different things, they can discuss what they want, but they wont agree with each other. People are just too different.

 

Note: This is completely my opinion, if you dont like it, and wont live with it, why do you expect me to like/live with yours?

Im going to start this off, I say eff all to anyone who says a person shouldnt have a choice. Harsh? Yeah, probably, but I dont claim to be nice all the time.
Life is a choice, people say I dont have the right to take my own life. Answer me this, why is it their choice if I take my own? Say this has no bearing on pro-choice, it doesnt matter, Life(tm) doesnt start till an individual can make conscience choices, and reason on its own. How can life exist before that? A soul, can the soul make its choice? Can you prove there is a soul? No, on both accounts.
To the abortion issue, if it takes a girl more than two months to decide whether to abort her kid(note, this is including talking with people) then she should stick to it. She had the option of a choice, if she didnt make it by that time, then she should not have partaken in the act of procreation.

 

My opinion on the matter is more on the side of not debating if abortion should be allowed but rather WHEN it should be allowed, and as we can see from the topic, that's the hard part, isn't it?
Mostly, though, I think that children should be allowed to born. They've invented adoption, haven't they?
I know it is hopelessly naive way of seeing things, but there are numerous peolpe who cannot have children and who suffer when they hear of people who callously choose abortion if having a child would, say, ruin their career plans.

I could say more, but it has already been said by many... al the examples of young mothers and disabled children.

Ara
(Rather tired)

 

Thanks Arabwel...
This is what I ment. but I needed more words to express myself.

 

OK, I've followed this thread for a while and finaly decided to offer my opinion. You say that the fetus hasn't had experiences and so cannot be classified as 'alive', but the point is, if left to grow that fetus will end up having experiences. After all, who are we to decide if this soon-to-be person should not experience life?

 

I disagree with you, BTA. Most pro-life people do also have a legal stance on abortion (i.e. that it should be criminalised or strictly regulated) but it's not inherent to being pro-life. I would characterise it as believing that abortion is wrong and taking steps to prevent it- not necessarily legal steps. Many pro-life activists are more interested in improving access to birth control and working towards new social attitudes than they are with a specific political agenda. In particular, Jewish, Quaker, Hudderite, Mennonite and Salvationist pro-life groups are usually not very interested in what the law says about abortion, they are interested in what individuals, families and religious authorities believe about abortion. Having myself been involved with such groups, I would liken the stance to that against suicide. It's not a question of blame or criminality, it's a question of trying to avert a tragedy. I imagine that the situation may well be different in the United States where politics and religion seem so often related.

The terms pro-life and pro-choice really muddy the waters. I find them both quite offensive- are people opposed to abortion opposed to choices in general? Are people who think abortion is a good way to deal with unexpected children "pro-death"? Certainly not. I think we should stick with "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion instead".

 

DeBhaal,

It's comments like these that I find baffling. There are many choices you are not legally allowed to make. Speeding, burglary, robbery, vandalism, sex in public, and, yes, (non-abortion) murder. So what about these?

A two year old child does not have the ability to reason on it's own (trust me, I have one). Should you be able to kill young children? What about the mentally disabled who are unable to reason on their own? Alzhiemers patients?

 

So many sexist comments so little time...
The evil career woman, my gosh, we girls just can't do anything right can we?

Why is it people love to paint women who have abortions as self-centered career women? I am always amazed by the stereotypes pro-lifers use. It must be so difficult to imagine a woman who would choose to abort who might actually be doing it for unselfish reasons, who might find it as a very difficult and emotional decision.

 

Hmmm... I pull back my career comment and hang my head in shame. it was unwise of me to use that example.

Ara
(Life is a *annoying censorship would censor the expression* and then you kick the "Bukee!")

 

You still make the choice, you suffer the consequences. What I want to know is, Why should another person decide whether you should be allowed to make the choice.

 

DeBhaal,

And if abortion were illegal (like the other crimes I mentioned) you would have to suffer the consequences, either give birth or have an illegal abortion.