Abu Ghraib. Lesson not learnt?

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US Army Special OPS, Rangers, Navy SEALS, and USMC MEF are not only the best equipped, but the best trained military units of their kind in the world.

There are some specialized units from other Countries that are better than US forces for particular terrain...as I recall Italy sent special "mountain" trained units to Afganistan...but when it comes to general levels of excellence combined with the ability to execute a mission and achieve objectives...the "Cream of the Crop" of the US Military is the "Cream of the Crop" of the world.

But that is hardly the topic of discussion. Yes, the US has learned, and continues to learn from these events...and this early in the investigation I don't understand how anyone could make the claim otherwise.

 

GM was boasting of more than just moral strength. And on that issue he's correct. I agree with you that there isn't much honor in the behavior that we've seen recently, but the issue of technical skill and power is something else again. As Hacken Slash noted.... the SEALS, Special Ops, Rangers, etc. ARE some of the most highly trained military personnel in existence. So before we go and call the entire US army or military subrate or inferior, it might be wise to look at the whole picture.

 

Of course we will all claim are countries' special forces are the best in the world. I'd personally place bets on our SAS if it came to a straight up soldiering competition between the UK and US. But it's easy to hide behind patriotic zeal. At the core we are all blind to the worst of our forces actions because we do not wish to see the apalling truth. Grey Magistrate: Name me one example of the great U.S accountability. One example of what makes the U.S army "better" than everybody else. We can play this game all day. The U.S is AS bad as everybody else. They are not "morally" the best, because they have NO moral high ground to stand on. You have no evidence to support this arument at all. Just agree that this is not a moral argument. Brutality begets brutality. This violence will not end, until the U.S accepts its errors and takes steps to make reperations. Sending one lowly soldier to jail for "up to" a year is hardly accountability.

 

Let me clarify.

Suppose I were to claim that US corporations are the best in the world - nay, the history of the world. How would we go about demonstrating the truth or falsity of this claim?

Well, we could look at raw stock value. Or contribution to global GDP. Or employment. Or cash on hand. Or number of branches. Or charitable contributions. Or average wage. Or global reach. Or corporate governance. Or whatever.

A cold-hearted economic assessment would measure the current US economic output as leading the world, not just relatively but absolutely.

However, every day US companies go bankrupt. Investors are fleeced. Pensions are looted. Board members exploit their companies. Employees are injured in preventable ways. And every so often, a shockwave like the dot-com scandal or Enron cheat shakes the foundations.

This sad litany of failure and fraud does not obviate that the US corporate economy is the best in the world. Nor do niche competitors that can best individual US companies in a head-to-head match cancel the overall US advantage, or small countries like Switzerland that eke out marginally higher per-capita income. Nor, even, do historical examples like the Medici.

It doesn't require a patriot to claim this - anti-globalization protestors demonize the US precisely because they view it as the best.

My point is that the Abu Ghraib incident - while sickeningly stupid, short-sighted, and sadistic - does not negate the US military's rank at the top of the historical ladder. In terms of power AND honor. And it is because of that very power and honor that the US Army is working - and has been working for months - to deal with this travesty appropriately, according to pre-existing rules and regulations.

All of which calls for humility and a standard which is high unto itself, rather than merely "better than Saddam". Great nations have come and gone, and the US certainly won't be around forever. As Kipling puts it:

Far-called, our navies melt away -
On dune and headland sinks the fire -
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget - lest we forget!

But we won't understand the true seriousness of the problem - and we won't comprehend whether or not the lesson is actually being "learned" or merely being "publicly revealed in process" - if we don't understand the US military in a truly serious way, either. That ain't a beauty contest or mere patriotism. It's cold reality.

And Takara - one year in a military prison, a ruined career, and official lifetime disgrace may not seem like very much. But it was the maximum penalty permitted given that the fella in question 1) killed no one, 2) raped no one, and 3) physically injured no one. He was a witness and an accomplice, but was not as deeply involved in the actual process as the others. Penalties for those who actually stomped, molested, and shot will be proprotionately higher, according to pre-existing regulations. It is another measure of the US Army's accountability that it does not retroactively increase the penalties on lowly soldiers for purely political purposes.

 

Imposing retroactive penal laws is not something any government could possibly get away with in any system remotely resembling democracy, so it's not really so great a distinction to refrain from it.

One year is not little and, as GM says, the stigma will remain with the man. The army was his chosen career and now he has nothing to seek there. After a court martial degradation, there's not really any hope for promotion - and anyway, he has been expelled from the army as well. This, together with criminal record, bars him from practically all job in his chosen field. It was sick and it shouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have happened if the guys up the chain had been doing their job. It's enough the man has been stigmatised for the whole life. A year or two more in prison would not change his situation much, nor would it reverse anything. The only "benefit" would be making some people feel better, which is not the aim of justice. Conclusion: a good verdict.

Next, I make it clear once again: I'm not here to condemn the US Army. I'm not here to say it's a bad one, either. However, it has no higher a moral ground than any other army and possibly a lower one than some armies in the world. It is not the best trained one, either. Flashy toys are a nice thing to have, but not if they tend to go mad a lot. Especially if you have grown dependent on them. They contribute greatly to the US Army's world record friendly fire ratio. And civilian victim ratio. The special strength is only in pure power and it comes from the strength of American economy and being able to spend a lot on army budget. Not from any special moral ground.

Next, in the given context, it was very improper of the general to say what he said.

What attracts my attention especially is the obvious link to exceptionalism and arrogant stance of superiority. Feeling confident of your worth is one, feeling superior and letting others know is a completely different thing.

I am opposing the general and his lines, not the US Army here.

 

The US army is indeed the most powerful today but claiming that it is in the top of the historical ladder in terms of firepower is wrong. An army's firepower must be compared with the firepower of its contemporary armies not with the firepower of armies of past years. You can't compare the firepower of the US army with the firepower of the roman legion, because in this case you are comparing apples and oranges. If with the term "power" you mean effectiveness, then your claim is again wrong. There were many armies in the history which had a more impressive record and were far more effective than the modern US army (for example Roman legions, Alexander's army, Attila's Huhns etc).

As far as honor is concerned, I can't understand what you mean. If with honor you mean the values or the ideas that the american army fights for, what makes the american values and ideas more honorable than the ideas and values of other armies who were as powerful as the US army in their time?

 

@Takara

Your point is valid, and would be of substance, if the Elite forces of foreign nations didn't buy equipment from the US and train their units at US bases

All said though, I would have to say that the SAS could give American Elite units a run for the money...but who are our staunchest allies in Iraq?

Oh, and about US accountability...well, you can either look at the current unfolding of events, or check out the trials on the "Mei Lai" massacre.

@BOC...I understand your point, but it is hard to equate two different eras. The Romans and Alexander's Legions had two trump cards...weaponry and utilization. Those elements are not as applicable today in our Global scheme, so I don't really see that your comparison is valid...a Persian who was confronted with a Greek Phalanx was overwhelmed by the new structure...the same could be said for the Roman Legions.

There were "secrets" in the world back then that could define the results of combat...e.g. mounted archers, iron weapons, strategical formations...that secrecy no longer exists in our modern world and I don't think the comparisons are valid.

 

Cry havoc! And release the dogs of war!
I would just like to say that it is somewhat amusing to see the wholesale ignoring of my posts. Either they are so confused and muddled they are better left ignored (which is a real possibility I accept that) or it is an issue most people feel most comfortable leaving alone.

On a whole other issue regarding the "elite" soldiers. Elite soldiers are pretty much the same all over the world. No unit is "better" than any other, they are at about the same level. However, I read an interesting article once about the elite corps of Sweden, Norway and Denmark having an exersice in the north of Sweden together with the US SEALs. It was the SEALs of the US and the Scandinavian countries "hunter" corps. They had a ranking after completion of the excersise and the Danes won, I dont remember who got second of Sweden or Norway but I do know that the SEALs finished dead last. Much to the surprise of the people organising the excersise as it wasnt really terrain or climate depandent. Keep in mind that the Scandinavian troops were all conscripts with at most a year of training while the US troops were all professionals. Ties neatly back to a topic I made a while ago about conscription vs mercenaries.

 

@Joaqin...

NATO knows how to keep an ally Just one more reason why to not allow beer on US bases.

And I'll need to look back at what your posts were...I just jumped into this thread of late, but I hate for you to feel ignored.

 

Sweden aint a member of the NATO...officially.

 

Nay, GM, we demonize corporate America because of its utter lack of integrity and morals. Also, that it is the biggest leech, off the American taxpayer, to come down the pike. Talk about a corporate welfare state that all Americans can be proud of.

 

Way off topic but that is so true, Corporate Welfare spending is well over ten times so called social welfare spending. Beck to our regularly scheduled topic

 

...as compared to what? The bank-bankrupting Japanese congolomerates? The inbred Korean chaebols? The state-massaged European "industrial champions"? The crippled giants of the ex-Soviet Bloc? The red-chip, red-inked Chinese companies?

Should we assume that the billions American corporations donate every year is no more than tax-dodging advertising? Or that the peculiar American prohibition against foreign bribery is somehow irrelevant? Or that American corporations run, owned, and staffed by American citizens inexplicably become both inhuman and unAmerican between nine and five?

Encore, recognizing the very real flaws of American society - military, economy, media, whatever - should blind us to neither its strengths nor the competition's greater flaws.

 

Common decency, Amercian middle class values, the same things we profess that we believe in and act on each and everyday for our children's sake. What would you teach your children? The difference between right and wrong should not be that profound an issue. Do we really need someone to tell us what's right and what isn't?

 

Ah yes, breaking the news is that the original Taguba report on abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US troops, 2.000 pages strong as delivered to congress, in fact was some 6.000 pages long and that the missing two thirds must have been somehow ... forgotten ... as a result of a computer glitch ... or so
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4124045,00.html
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Now that is an argument - to say it isn't a problem because people, who couldn't know the report in fact is 4.000 pages longer, didn't complain

Sure bet.