Alley of Lingering Sighs Forum Opens

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Tal, don't throw up your hands in frustration. I take all the feelings displayed in this thread that we must continue to debate US policy and action. I think, despite the frustration and tension, that it ultimately does good. During the course of passionate debate I have found out "real" things about my adversaries...Ragusa absolutely rules as a fan of old warplanes, Joacqin has a wonderful flair for scientific fiction, Chandos is probably a lot more like me than I admit...those are just a few that I can think of without thinking.

My point is that debating heated politics with people in this unique SP is a benefit to us all. In a place where the 'fight' is secondary to talking about RPG's, you have no choice but to connect to other forum members, whether it is in using their help in creating a new character or bantering in 'Whatnots'. There is an avenue by which the person who just opposed you in the Alley can become your friend in the game forums. It makes them real and it makes me more aware that the feelings they espouse about the US are real too. I think that this phenomena runs both ways.

I have never run away from debate here because I felt that it was "too anti-American"...nor have any of the 'real' conservatives who have stuck with this place (darn, I miss Grey Magistrate). Let's keep the debate and the reminder that comes with it that when the dust settles we all breath air. Anything that helps make this world a little smaller place can't be bad.

 

I agree with Hacken Slash.

Posting on the Internet is difficult because you can't hear or see the other posters. Something that makes perfect sense to you may come across totally different to others. The fact that we post in English will cause problems to those whose native language is not English.

I know I forget that fact. Most of the posts are so well done I forget that it may be a second language. If I tried to post in German or Italian it would be at best hilarious and at worst offensive.

Using a translator can come up with some weird and funny things, too.

I'll try to remember that you are only human if you will do the same for me.

 

This is a website devoted to D&D and RPG games after all. I don't think it should cater for political discussion.

 

Political disucussions for me are a great learning expirience really. I want to know why Americans like Bush because if I don't know the real reason I would probably think that they were all stupid south state rednecks who never had any kind of education. Political debate can really expand your view on the subject and enlighten you in a certain way. Even if you know you're right it's allways nice to hear what the other side has to say about it.

I can however understand how it might feel frustrating sometimes in these boards for Bush supporting Americans. Now if people here were Bashing some politican in Finland who I happen to like or the Finnish legal system or Finnish history constantly, I would get very frustrated and perhaps even angry. On the one hand I'd want to defend my country but on the other hand I'd feel that it would be useless if I'd have ten guys shouting how I'm wrong and how my country is all bad etc. It would stop being fun or enlightening and eventually I would probably leave.

One problem as I see is you Tal, even though it's fun to see you participate in the political debate, you are very anti-Bush and have not hesitated to show it. You are an authoroty figure on these boards and represent them in a way so if someone sees you say something against Bush they might think that even the adminstrator of these boards is anti-bush (or anti-american according to some). BTA who supports Bush doesen't post nearly as much in similar discussions (which is a shame really) so it doesn't really balance the matter.

One final thing before I end this rant. I love the alley exactly because it represents so many views and it is well moderated. If anyone posts idiotic things like "all Americans are stupid" or "all Europeans are commies" they will be sanctioned and their posts deleted. If all the conservative people would disappear from the forums the forums would become dull since one can't really have a political discussion if everyone agrees with him.
I really miss guys like Laches and Sharlp who brought this boards conservative energy and it's really a shame that they have left these forums. I do enjoy and love the debates in the Alley and it's a very important part for me in SP and a big reason why I went and donated money for the SP.

Bleeh... Now I only hope the text makes some sence.

 

Ah, there's probably no easy solution to this other than everyone trying to make sure they have some consideration for others and trying to avoid offensive generalisations. And unfortunately for moderators, we also need regular comments from you when we step out of line.

I would be very sorry to see any of the various topics that are currently debated lost from this forum as I think that would lessen the appeal of this environment.

 

That actually took a lot of guts to say. But it also reveals a possible problem.

The fact that Tal runs a website dedicated to computer games does not in any way make him an authority on international politics (no insult intended, Tal); it only makes him an authority on, well, running a CRPG gaming site. On the other hand, it doesn't discredit him from having valid opinions on politics, any more than it does the rest of us.

Shralp, for example (who I really enjoyed, even though I disagreed with practically everything he said), didn't see Tal as an authority figure outside of a Board admin, and wasn't afraid to show it; unfortunately, he must have crossed a line somewhere (I'm unclear as to where) and got himself banned.

The point being (and I do have one this time) is that, just because you might disagree with Tal, that doesn't mean you shouldn't feel that you can't express that disagreement, any more than you shouldn't think that you can't disagree with anyone else. Be respectful of others, and you should be OK.

 

I'm not asking for your justification, Tal; that you saw fit to ban Shralp is your call, and it isn't up to me to question your judgement.

As to your first point, I absolutely do not think that being an SP staff member should disqualify you from expressing your opnion; I just think that others shouldn't think your opinion carries any more weight than anyone else's simply because you're an admin. Your opinions should be judged on their merit, not on the basis that you run a CRPG site. And again, I stress that I'm not trying to discredit you, but rather I'm trying to do away with any misconception that "Tal is an admin, and has such-and-such opinion, so it must be correct". I would be just as disappointed if people thought that my opinion carried that much weight simply because of my age.

 

I can allready imagine Chev's horrified experssion as he watches this thread.

Seriously though I don't really know if it would help. Some people would probably be satisfied only if the adminstration started to give sanctions for those who critizise the Bush regime, and I'm sure then we'd have another group leaving. On the other hand it would prevent people from drawing the "oh so the admins are anti-american so these entire forums also must be anti-american" conclusion. I do however feel that the right of free speech should be valued also in these forums and limiting it for the staff members would be wrong.

I do have one idea though. Perhaps the alley should become a more private place for only those who have posted here for a while. Perhaps people would have to make some kind of an application which states the exact rules how the alley works and they must agree to follow those rule or they will be banned from the alley. This would prevent at least all the newer members from being driven away by the alley. This would probably create a lot more work for you Tal of course and would not really do anything to solve problems with the more senior members.

This discussion is very very difficult and in the end everyone won't be pleased, but I hope we can maintain a healthy atmosphere on these forums and keep the political debates.

 

I'm in a unique postition. I love Shralp and understood everything he ever said. I also understand how Tal took the things he said, and his subsequent actions. Maybe Shralp just needed a good interpreter? (BTW, anyone know what happened to the Gleeful Extremist?)

Shralp went over the top, just as I often do, but his humor was a bit more obtuse. Anyway, lets keep the debate open, even if we find out we're really bleeding afterward.

Hey Splunge...how you doing buddy? Long time, no slap!

 

Tal, I do not think 'banning' staff members would make a difference. Maybe because the things that upset me had nothing to do with you or any staff member. That would also mean Chev couldn't post on political threads. It would make the thread shorter but less interesting. (I wanted to post a Graemlin here but couldn't find 'tongue in cheek')

Actually I think this todo has helped clear the air to some extent. Maybe we can now all be a little more considerate of others. Well, at least for a while.

 

Well it could be tested to see how it works for a while atleast but I don't think it would be good to have any of you completely abstain from political topics, perhaps just the hot emotional topics such as US policies, abortion perhaps, gay marriages etc. I also think that SP could use one or two adittional moderators to go through posts here to check rule violations. It has been mentioned several that the moderators here might be "partial" when it comes to sanctioning posts in the alley and a few extra moderators would do wonders to increase the efficency in sanctioning. Of course I also realize that good moderators are not easy to find.

Additionally I do not think persons like Catbert or Chev who do not actually moderate these boards should be limited in any way. I've never seen anyone take up Chev's duty as a news poster for example when they are critizising Chev's posts.

Canning political discussion is for me a very big no no and I think it canning politics would damage this board and its community a lot more than any other reasonable option available.

 

I don't really care about any of this to be truthful but it is a shame because nobody has anything good to talk about except the same old **** in the aoda. I remember the other forums had loads more activity when I first joined. If you closed down all the other forums and just left the aoda open I don't think anyone would care except me!

 

Well I assume a homosexual could take criticism towards gay marriage very seriously and take make an assumption of the forum being "anti-homosexual" but these cases would be rare anyway so I doubt it would be a large problem.

 

Let me ask this: Would the people who complained about the political heat have stayed anyway, if all political debate was banned? I think not. Or at least, like a few of us, their participation would be greatly reduced on the forum if politics were removed. They just did not like the way the debate turned out, IMO.

If politics were removed I certainly would not leave SP - this is still an excellent site, Tal, but it would not be the same. IMO, it would do more harm than good though.

 

Aye to what Chandos just said. Tal, can I just buy you a beer?