Alley of Lingering Sighs Forum Opens

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OK, everybody listen.

First, we need to realise that banning political discussion will bring more harm than it will prevent. Ban on politics will kill the Alley, while political discussion will slip into the undead carcass of the Alley, into Whatnots and, occasionally, other forums. Also, problems with what is bashing and what isn't, don't even come close to drawing and keeping the line on what is the forbidden politics and what isn't.

Second, we need to realise that for each instance of real bashing there is at least one unmerited accusation. A hasty accusation of bashing is bashing of its own kind and equally as painful and potentially offensive. Accusation of hatred is even more so. We need to keep both sides of the spectrum in mind.

Third, that we disagree on certain even substantial matters of moral and ethical nature, let alone mundane politics, and that sometimes we can't even agree to disagree, doesn't mean we have to, or do harbour bad feelings for each other or act on negative emotions or out of malicious intent or ignorance. This is sometimes forgotten, especially in desperate need to find an argument or make a point. Calmness is key to avoiding this. Another good effect of calmness is that it actually helps find a real argument.

Fourth, we need to understand that even if someone really crosses the line it still doesn't mean that he wants to hurt us. Perhaps he's having a bad day. Maybe he's even taking it out or maybe he needs to vent. Perhaps he's trying to be sarcastic. Perhaps something hurt him in our previous post or he got something totally wrong (checking location might help here). Let's show some understanding. If not, calmness will still help sort it out.

Fifth, no one in the Staff pulls rank on other people or otherwise abuses his position. Admin or not, Tal still gets a pounding if he says something I don't like. But he's going to have to update the rules if he wants to keep typing thread titles in all caps.

 

Absolutely not.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just as long as everyone (and I mean the non-staffers, since I know you understand where I'm coming from, Tal) doesn't think the opinions of the admins/mods are somehow more significant simply because of their role on the Boards.

Of course, I suppose that is what you're getting at, Tal - that some people might place the admins/mods on some sort of pedastal. But to me, that's their problem, not yours. The fact is that you, BTA, Beren and chev have, IMO, well-informed and relevent comments, and the Boards would be worse off if you didn't post your opinions.

Plus there's nothing like spending 3/4 of an hour trying to decifer one of chev's posts.

Edit: Almost forgot:
/me slaps Hack

 

No, as the four of you that you have listed are pretty much spread out on the political field. None of you have opinions alike the others, or so I have understood it at least.


And I don't consider Catbert a member of the staff in that view. I mean, he's a coder, and probably posts less than Extremist during this last half year.

[ January 24, 2005, 07:06: Message edited by: Caleb* ]

 

I understand, Tal. But to me, that's an arguement for stopping political debate altogether, not for keeping the admins/mods out of it. And part of me agrees with you - for example, I still miss Laches, who was IMO one of the more intelligent SPers who felt driven away because of the Alley. On the other hand, the political debates in the Alley(s) are part of what make SP special, and I can say without hesitation that my awareness level of politics has gone up substantially because of the discussions in the Alley.

To be honest, I think it would be almost impossible to keep politics out. As Sprite said, people will always find a way to work it in if they want.

 

But that was more of a personal problem that he had with some of us. That kind of conflict can show up anywhere on the boards, not just politics. He just didn't have your charm, Splunge.

[ January 24, 2005, 05:18: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

 

To be honest, I've never understood the point of having a political discussion sector in games-related forums such as this one or the Apolyton Civilization Site which is another site I used to visit frequently. I bring up Apolyton because it looks to me like their forums have been completely taken over by the Off-Topic, as it's called there: Some of the games-related forums have fallen into complete disuse, while the Off-Topic attracts more posts than a good portion of the games-related forums combined.

On top of that, there are people who I've never seen making an on-topic post. On top of that, a lot of on-topic posters seem to tacitly acknowledge that the Off-Topic is the ultimate goal for Apolyton posters - I've seen more than one on-topic poster planning publicly to "solidify their reputation" as a regular and then "graduate" to the Off-Topic. And still on top of that, the entire tone of the Off-Topic is completely uncivil. Every person is a troll and tries to be sardonic. If our "off-topic" forum is the Alley of Dangerous Angles, Apolyton's should be called the Fell Wood: It's dark, you can lose your way all too easily and go in circles, and you should never go in without a magic sword and a few bottles of acid.

Far be it from me to pass judgment on Sorcerer's Place policy. I'm just a newbie, and I just try to be an honest Icewind Dale II player (who steals books out of Elytharra's study every single time he plays the Prologue). If there is a point to this, I guess it would be that I'm glad that the politics has a place where it can go and people can look for it, and that there are places I can go where there isn't politics. After all, if there weren't an Alley of Dangerous Angles, you can be sure that people would be flooding Sorcerer with screenshots showing them entering "GEORGE W BUSH IS TEH ANTICHRIST!!!!111" in their characters' biographies.

 

Well, just about the only topics I read or post on this site are in the "Alley". I don't write too much, but I've been coming here for years now, and I usually come by every day. I love reading the posts here. Some make me mad at times (for I DID vote for Bush) but I love the fact that I can get other peoples opinions.

Tal, please by no means should you ban all political discussions. Furthermore, please don't keep the SP staff (yourself included) from posting. Eventhough I don't agree with some of your posts, I really like reading what you have to say.

I have been under the impression for a long time now that most of the posters here are smart, mature people who have passionate opinions. I can't believe that the political discussions here are the driving factor behind many people leaving.

 

It is interesting to read Western Paladin's comments because they reinforce for me my view that, while the Alley(s) is (are) not perfect and are sometimes offensive, they are several light years more mature and sensible than many other forums on the 'net. As we have said many times before, this is due in no small part to the fact that there are rules and they are enforced. Sure, things get out of hand sometimes, but not much, and not as badly as they do elsewhere.

SP rules!

{insert giant flashing, unfunny signature here}

 

Because it makes the site much more engaging. Almost everyone who is a card-carrying member of this site posts in the Alley, or at least reads the posts there. There is probably a good reason for that...

 

So far it seems, all we have heard from are the Alley regulars. Dont you guys find it odd that only you are posting here. We havent heard from the ones who dislike what the alley is. Well, maybe Sarevok, but his posts have hardly been constructive. I mean... you guys LIKE what it is... but why was a new forum created? obviously as it is isnt good enough. DMC has said if you dont like it... dont go in. And that's just it. More and more arent going in. We just dont like what it is/has become.

I personally dislike what the alley is, and possibly become. Though it generally was this way when I arrived.

You guys like to discuss/have arguments, and have developed your unique brand of post bashing... I mean... logical debate. You see, I find that discussiion has been lost. It's become a place dominated by bullies. And I'm sure I can speak for many when I say these things. You may not see it as bullying, afterall it isnt that obvious. You see your discussions as forceful arguments. That's fine, but someone needs to tell you how the rest of us see it. I like to get into a discussion, but I'm tired of the Alley's chest banging and attitude. When I make a post, I'm fed up with it being quoted line by line, and refuted with x amount of links. You may have the time to do that, but I dont, nor do I have the desire to read a page load of crap on why it was wrong for me to say what I did.

I go into a garage, and see something. I see a wheel, a tail light, maybe a few rivets. I can think... maybe it's a vehicle, but I dont know. I'm looking too damn close. Sometimes you have to step back to really see what is before you. It's like that with posts. When you are picking a post apart line by line, you are too close. You miss the entire point of the post in the first place. You can hazard a guess, sure, but you dont know what the person is really saying, what made him post in the first place. The whole agree to disagree is lost since how can you do that if you cant see his point?

And this is the fundamental problem with the alley, why I and many others dont like it anymore. We have an opinion on a matter, and want to share it, but we DONT because we dont want our posts browbeated, and taken apart. Sorry guys, but we have had enough of the bullying.

imho, I dont think that stopping political discussion will solve anything. I'd like to see both Alleys closed altogether.

 

Astonishing. Although I feel that sometimes (more than is good for my self-respect...) I fall into the same routine of quoting bits of what is convenient to my cause in the Alley, I really think along the same lines as Takara in this respect.

More often than not people are just repeating themselves over and over regardless of what any other member has said or, come to that, meant. It's not about opinions, it's about the value of opinions. Obviously, there are good opinions (mine!) and bad opinions (theirs!). It's not enough that you think about things in a certain way, no, you have to make sure your statements are logically backed up, and that your logic is waterproof, and that your semantics match your logic, and that your charisma matches your semantics... Jeez!

And the winner is the one with the longest breath who doesn't tire of posting the same stuff again and again.

Sometimes it may be enjoyable to show off and join the My-Dick-Is-The-Longest-Contest (as the members of the female persuasion rarely enter into the alpha-male kind of posting behaviour). But most of the times I appreciate someone as mature (or as clueless ) as Splunge.

Right on, Takara!

 

Uuh... This is starting to get serious.

If it turns now out that it's impossible to keep the political discussion in its current state I think the alley should be somehow hidden from your casual viewer in case of crisis if it becomes impossible to preserve it otherwise make it only visible for the SPS account holders. Of course there is a very limited number of us so it would efficently kill much of the discussion but atleast it would be possible to have some sort of political discussion in here. I would not want to see this implemented though unless it was the only option.

If new posters would feel insulted by the contents of the alley then they clearly should not go there and the easiest way of doing that is to hide the alley from them and let them in only when it's damn certain that they can endure the "horrors" inside.

 

There are times that people disagree over serious issues. And educated people settle these issues with the power of words, rather than the force of arms, or other attacks on the body. To my mind, this is a good way to settle serious issues, although there never really is a true "winner" in the same sense as in combat.

You can probably blame the ancient Greeks, since they may have started it all (but I'm sure someone will argue that point as well). Nevertheless, they could argue over a blade of green grass in a sunny field...then there were the Romans....Yet some of us find tremendous beauty in the symmetry of words, even when they are crafted into an argument, or "pocket essay". Voltaire once remarked: "I may not have a king's scepter, but I have a pen."

But much of the same political debate, argued even on this site, has been going on for hundreds of years. It is partly the legacy of the Enlightenment that the written argument is still with us today. Probably ever since people decided they can govern themselves they have argued about the best way to go about it. It is democracy in action.

 

Definitely not. I have always gotten a kick out of being shot down by BTA. Furthermore I feel its generally good for admins & mods to leave their tower of power and get in touch with the rest. From time to time they even dare to express their political view in the process - so what? That doesnt make the boards as such pro/contra anything, for the admins are nothing more but a part of the whole thing. Not some figureheads.
Just as one isnt anti-US when he/she expresses his anger over and worries for a nation that he otherwise quite likes - and perhaps even adores for some of its aspects. If someone has a problem diggesting it and makes it clear that he wont/cant accept the authority of an admins from now on because of it - well, that reflects poorly on him in many ways, and shouldnt bother the admin in question too much.

The US is in everyones focus right now - and this board, like our media, mirrors it. People feel the need to discuss what is going on. Taluntain responds to that by offering a place for political discussion. I would really like to see him continue doing just that.
Ok, world opinion isnt in favor of the US at the moment; it will pass. Or at least that is my hope. What would be the point in closing our eyes to it? If nothing else I found it interesting to learn about the motives and thoughts of the other side. Its like a sort of a, uhm, corrective? Something that helps balance things out. You learn! And I think when it occures - it just so happened in the Alley a few days ago - that a newbie bemoans in his very first (and presumeably last) post that he wont post on a board that is so "anti-american" no one should be troubled by it. That person missed the opportunity to set things straight... and should get lost for this attempt to put Tal under unfair pressure anyway! :/ Its obvious that he struggles to find an acceptable solution for all of his 'subjects'.

Oi, that turned out to be a longer rant than I intended.

 

No, I don't think it will make any difference.

I've been reading the staff members' comments on AoDA for a while now. Sometimes I agree with them, others not. In fact, whenever it comes to anything with morality involved I tend to completely disagree with Chev. I have NEVER felt however that he, or any other staff, was taking advantage of his position to impose his views. If anything, I find Tal's posts to be moderate (as in "this is what I think, not how you should think), relatively speaking.

If anyone feels insulted by an AoDA comment posted by a staff member, and particularly a moderator, maybe he/she should not automatically fall into a defensive mode. (And I'm being perfectly general in this statement, without anyone or any past event in mind)

And one last thing... folks, it's an online forum part of a gaming site. Life's too short to get insulted at what someone you don't even know MIGHT have meant in a post.

 

Takara said:

That was exactly why Laches left. - basically, he felt there was a lack of respect for other opinions.

And I agree - the insistence on quoting and refuting every litle point ad nauseum becomes very tiresome to read, which is why I simply don't bother reading those posts, and generally avoid those threads where that becomes prevalent. But again, that's my choice, and I don't stay out of the Alley entirely because of it.

@ Darkthrone - "clueless" is jst fine.

 

As this thread proves, banning political discussion would do absolutely nothing, it would just escape to other sections of the forum. And I would hate seeing the US being compared to Firkraag in the BG2 forum.

 

You forgot about Fort Save.

Well, you need something to put in the holes in the opposition's logic and the holes tend to be deep.