America bombs Canadians

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From someone who has been there:

One: you take an oath when you enter the military that pretty much states you are there to protect your country under any circumstances and at any time. Everyone knows that when you make this statement and you enter the military there is a good chance that harm will come to you (whether it be an accident or that someone kills you because they hate who you are and what you stand for.) This is something that you make peace inside yourself about.

Two: accidents happen, you can have the best military soldier, behind the best piece of equipment known to man and still have an accident. We as human beings are flawed and often make mistakes. The best laid plans often go bad, as does the best equipment, cause it is not flawless either. It was a traing ground-----and it was an accident. America has accidently shot their own down before do to a poor choice that was made, while going off some not so great equipment. We didn't do that on purpose either.

Third: unless you were there, you can't really be certain exactly what happened. The news is not always the greatest source of information, and it certainly isn't the bible (or something you should believe fully in.) And secondly, I can garauntee you that all of the facts are not in yet, cause it just happened, and the military and the news are most likely just speculating at the moment. (The best source of information is your own two eyes, or that of someone who was there.)

Fourth: My dearest Sprite-----I too have friends that are out there this very moment in harms way. I do hope that your friends are alive and well, and I hope they stay that way. As do I hope the same for my friends.

 

My condolences, Sprite, if yout friends are hurt.

Second, it is getting pretty hot here.... try to curb down the amount of heat in the posts, we're nearing flames here!

Third: Yes, people die in war, perhaps in accident, but I do want to know what the Hell was that plane doing on training area.

/end rant mode

Ara
(Having a bad, bad day)

[This message has been edited by Arabwel (edited April 19, 2002).]

 

The American pilot thought he was being fired upon and fired back. Pretty standard practice in a war, really.

The idiots who gave him the go-ahead are to blame -- they should have realized that he was in a training area where Canadians were using live rounds.

 

Sprite, I hope your friends are all right. Please post as soon as you hear anything.

Alas, accidents do happen. I believe that this was a communication breakdown. The pilot should have been informed (by his superiors. I believe that the Canadian military informed the American military) of the training exercises. The same thing happened earlier in the war, except an American pilot killed American troops.

Several of the posts make it sound as if it was intentional. That's sad. Others speak of indifference. Again, sad.

I would not want to be that pilot. The personal hell of knowing you killed innocent people is brutal. A former friend of mine (I was the best man in his wedding) flew a B-52 in the Persian Gulf war. He did not kill any friendly troops, only enemies. This did not help matters for him. Seeing the results of his actions and knowing that hundreds, maybe thousands, of people died due to his actions was overwhelming and has changed him radically. He will never recover. He made the mistake of entering the military to be a pilot thinking that he would never see combat. He was wrong.

Finally, there is not one country that has participated in a war that has not been responsible for friendly-fire casualties. Most of the countries in Europe have not only participated in wars, but have been responsible for atrocities intentionally perpetrated against innocent people. Often this took place during wars and colonial periods (including the colonization of America).

So piss on America all you want. My country screwed up bad this time. No denying it. But unless your country has never done anything of this sort, or worse, then think before you say too much.

[This message has been edited by Jack Funk (edited April 19, 2002).]

 

I did not know any of the victims.

The men who were killed were:
Ainsworth Dyer, 25
Richard Green, 22
Marc Leger, 29
Nathan Smith, 27

The eight men who were seriously injured are:
Lorne Ford, 33
Stanley Clark, 35
Curtis Hollister, 29
Shane Brennan, 28
Brian Decaire, 25
Rene Paquette, 33
Brett Perry, 26
Norman Link, 24

For those who seem honestly unable to understand why non-Americans are angry about this, let's just say it must be a lot easier to say "c'mon, it was just an accident, nobody's fault" when your people are the attackers, not the ones in body bags.

I realise it would be sensible to leave it at that, but I'm distressed, so- Drunk drivers are often genuinely remorseful when they realise they've accidentally killed someone with their unwise actions- it doesn't make them less guilty. Just so, a man who ignored his commander's order to hold his fire, presumably because he was pissing himself at the sight of live fire, is guilty of the deaths he causes. And whoever so misjudged how he would behave under pressure as to put him in that bomber is equally guilty. Bush offered Canada "condolences"? The hell with that. An apology, please. Although I'd be more likely to accept it accompanied by the pilot's head.

 

It's nice to hear that your friends weren't injured Sprite. As for the dead, I hope they've gone to a better place.

 

Just to make note.

I am not trying to get heated nor stir up your typical canada versus america conversation. If it was Canada that had mucked up and killed american soldiers i would be asking the same questions, And i would hope that Cretien offered more then condolences.

 

Everyone seems eager to blame a COUNTRY for this action, it wasn't down to a whole country, just a few individuals who got it a little wrong.

 

No one is taking an "it's nobody's fault attitude." In fact, I explicitly said it was the fault of the idiot who gave the pilot the go-ahead to drop the bomb and the idiot who didn't tell the pilot that he was flying over a live-fire training area. I don't know what Canadian media is saying, but he did not drop the bomb against orders.

I understand being rattled by the possibility of your friends being hurt or even killed, but you seem to want vengence, not justice.

 

Americans have always been careless in wars. In the second world war they *helped out* in the battle of britain but managed to shoot down nearly as many tommies as krauts! In Vietnam there were hundreds of incidents of Americans napalming or shoting their own men by mistake....(it was even included in an american movie! hamburger hill i think). In the Gulf as has been said before they were pretty careless and now this.

Personally i still find this no reason to blame America as a whole for this incident. However in saying that i hope Shralp especially can understand why some people do. It is part of American personality to be unintentionally reckless, they are fiercely patriotic and often volitile around hated enemies. Maybe we should take into account that the two towers scenario has enraged a great deal of americans, and sometimes this can overcome their proffesional judgement.

But as you say, war is war.

 

If "No one is taking an "it's nobody's fault attitude."", Shralp, why has no form of apology or expression of remorse been forthcoming? No one has accepted responsibility for this. A condolence is not an apology- I know that your English skills are strong enough to understand the difference. The Pentagon quotes we are getting in Canada are to the effect that the pilot twice asked permission to bomb, and was given permission only to mark the target. However, he ignored this directive to bomb. But if, as you suggest, the Canadian media has invented this Pentagon quote and in fact the pilot DID have orders to fire on a Canadian training exercise (about which the United States had most definitely been informed, especially since Canadian troops are under US command) then there is all the more reason why someone in the US Army, or the US president, should formally apologise to Canada. And pay restitution for the cost of training and equipping the soldiers they destroyed with their carelessness.

Perhaps you feel that being asked to apologise is "vengeance" rather than justice, but outside of the United States apologies are in fact NOT considered to be cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[I retract this statement due to an error in communication]. If a Canadian pilot had screwed up this royally against the US, Chretien would definitely have apologized to the US since, that's one of two things Chretien does (the other is nothing). Bush should definitely apologize, condolences might mean a little to the families of the dead and wounded, but an apology would probably make them feel better (along with the rest of Canada) since it would mean admitting to a mistake (something American politicans aren't very fond of).
On another note, I watched the 4 dead Canadians flown in to Trenton today, but amazingly enough, the only channel that covered it was RDI (a French-Canadian news channel). Were the 4 men brought in today, or was I watching a re-run?

[This message has been edited by Faerus Stoneslammer (edited April 23, 2002).]

 

Yes, it was today that they returned.

As for this:

What is that supposed to mean?

 

EDIT: [I retract my previous statement in this slot, there was an error in communication]

[This message has been edited by Faerus Stoneslammer (edited April 23, 2002).]

 

Americans have always been careless in wars?

Riiiiight, Poodle.

So should we base our opinions of the Brits on incidents like Gallipoli and say that they have always been cowards who hang their allies out to dry?

Sprite, I haven't been reading every statement coming out of the Pentagon to see if they include the words "apology" or "sorry." But even if they don't, would it really make you feel better to suddenly see them? It seems obvious to the entire world as well as the American public and military that the U.S. military screwed up. You really think an apology is going to do anything? I don't understand the modern fixation on hearing those words.

In this case, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pentagon is avoiding using those words in order to avoid international law that require them to pay restitution. I don't know that that's the case, and it would be reprehensible if it were so.

 

"It seems obvious to the entire world as well as the American public and military that the U.S. military screwed up. "

Really?

I know it's obvious to *me* that the US military screwed up, and it's refreshing to know that it's obvious to a member of the American public such as yourself. But it doesn't sound from any of the news reports we've seen that the US military knows it, and especially not that Bush knows it. That's what's alarming to me, - no official or unofficial statement from the US to the effect that "we recognise this is our mistake, and we're going to see what we can do to make sure it doesn't happen again." All we hear is variations on, "accidents happen", which is not acceptable on its own. It implies that no one was responsible for this reprehensible error, and that no effort needs to be made to make such an accident less likely to happen again.

If the American public's response is accurately reflected by your posts, and by those of other Americans on this board, then I'm relieved. Your responses have been a lot more sane than what we've been getting officially from the US.

I have just read that more Americans have been killed in Afghanistan by other Americans than by Afghanis. I'm curious- how does the American public feel about that? I know if it was Canadians "accidentally" killing each other at such an incredible rate over there, the Canadian public would scream blue murder and have the Minister of Defence's head on a platter. Are Americans up in arms over this or is there a general sense that soldiers' lives are cheap and/or that it's a small price to pay?

 

We fully expect that more Americans will be killed by accident than by Taliban fighters. Accidents happen, and they're more dangerous than the rag-tag group of fighters over there.

Oh, and would those of you who long ago posted things like, "The U.S. will get beaten just like the Russian and the British did in Afghanistan" and "Afghanistan will be another Vietnam" please report to your nearest Shralp for verbal humiliation?

 

I find it very disturbing that the phrase 'accidents happen' has been thrown around so much recently, and with such carelessness. Equally disturbing is the use of the term 'acceptable'. First, this accident should never have happened. This was not a case of a mechanical breakdown, such as a gun backfiring or radar equipment malfunctioning. This incident, the result of negligence and carelessness, was completely avoidable. Second, once something becomes 'acceptable', that means it becomes part of the norm; acceptable standard practise. Whether the incident was the result of a) US air command not informing their pilots that they were over friendly units on training exercises or b) a pilot panicking at the sight of ground fire (Note: ground fire, not ground-to-air fire), the end result is entirely unacceptable.

As for why an actual apology, and even reparations, are warranted, maybe it helps to change perspective a little. Back in the spring of 2001, a US spy plane collided with a Chinese fighter plane over (or near) Chinese territory. The spy plane was forced to make an emergency landing, without permission, at a Chinese landing field. The Chinese plane crashed, and the pilot was killed. For several weeks after the incident, both US and Chinese officials sought apologies from one another, as well as admissions of guilt and acceptance of responsibility. Even though the US refused to apologise, they did offer an official condolense (taken by the Chinese as an apology). Colin Powell, US Secretary of State, outlined the US' stance on why an apology was not forthcoming:

"There was nothing to apologize for. To apologize would have suggested that we had done something wrong and we accepted responsibility for having done something wrong. And we did not do anything wrong. Therefore, it was not possible to apologize."

Now fast forward to the present date. The US does not offer an apology: therefore, the US is not responsible for the bombing, the US pilot/ air command did nothing wrong. The Canadian forces in Afganistan, allied forces under US command, are treated no better and in the exact same manner as the un-allied and un-friendly Chinese forces. So why are the Canadian forces even in Afganistan? Oh, yeah, to show support and solidarity after a terrorist attack on US soil. You're welcome.

 

Has it occured to you that perhaps an apology is not warranted?

One plane dropped a bomb because it thought that the other was taking fire. In fact, Afghans on the ground report that they saw tracers heading upward.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/04/19/ret.friendly.fire/index.html

If this was indeed a case of an idiot pilot dropping a bomb (I was in error earlier when I said that he had been given the go-ahead by radio), then the families deserve an apology. But maybe we should wait until the investigation is completed before we go pointing fingers.

Or you could just continue to slam America since it apparently is something you enjoy.

[This message has been edited by Shralp (edited April 22, 2002).]

 

Shralp: I never once referred to 'the US people', but to the the state and military command. I am quite certain that the majority of US citizens do feel sorry, and regret at this incident. Also of note, I am an American citizen, born in Akron, Ohio, who happens to live in Canada, and to hold both Canadian and US citizenship.