America bombs Canadians

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Z - you're point about the First World War is debatable. You are correct that Germany was about to win the war. However, while US involvement was important, the main factor was an internal collapse within Germany that forced them to surrender, similar to the outbreak of civil war in Russia which lead to their withdrawal from that war.

On the Second World War, there are two important factors which lead up to the defeat of Nazi Germany. The first, and foremost, was the decision to invade Russia. This placed Germany on three war fronts: English Channel, although mostly an air battle; North Africa; and finally Russia. It was a disastrous mistake, as it called for an immense amount of troops and resources, and the Russian retreat to Stalingrad forced the German forces to march very long distances over land, pushing their supplies lines to the limits and placing them far from any reinforcements. While Stalingrad was under seige, the remainder of the entire Russian army was able to regroup and then surround the Germans in a massive pincer movement. That was the beginning of the Red Army's advance on Berlin.

The second factor was the defeat of Rommel by the British (with some US troops, but must of the US was involved in the Pacific at that point). Rommel had not lost a single battel and had virtually secured all of Africa under German control - Italy controlled large parts of North Africa (Ethiopia for one) for Germany. However, a series of miraculous and stunning victories by the British in the Fall of 1942 forced Rommel into an extended (and devastating) retreat across the North African desert. This paved the way for Allied (US and British) forces landing on the coastal regions of North Africa (Algiers and Casablanca). Rommel was hemmed in by the British to the east and south and the Americans to the west. The British knocked Rommel out of E. Africa early in 1943 with a complete victory. The Americans took west Africa in the spring of 1943. This allowed the Americans to advance through the Mediterranean against the Germans and into southern Europe, and area that was previously believed unreachable, and it began with the British victories against Rommel in the fall of 1942.

However, had Germany never invaded Russia and split its forces, they would have won the war hands down, regardless of American involvement or not. It's generally viewed as Hitler's greatest military mistake - and to some, a sign of his insanity.

 

I know, but Gnolyn, would it be too much to ask for you to mention Canada a little bit in your next war speech? After all, Canada did play a rather interesting part in WW1, and we helped out in WW2, (Juno Beach, for example)...
Anyways, to be honest, I think that those pilots should indeed be charged and court-martialed, but I'm oof mixed thoughts when it comes to throwing them in jail. They did risk their lives just by going into Afghanistan, and they're not really criminals, so much as incompetant and over-eager boys with rather dangerous toys.

 

Hmm, there is a reputation for American soldiers having 'itchy trigger fingers' it comes from the Gulf when they missiled two Brit tanks and shot down an RAF chopper. But, this dosn't make any sense to me as they are trained equal to any other modern army...?

[ September 14, 2002, 22:08: Message edited by: Z-Layrex ]

 

Gnolyn Lochbreaker:
Sorry but what you write about German defeat in WWII is not right. The three front war was indeed a great strategical mistake but Germany could win the war even with three fronts. Africa front was a side-front and Germans got involved there because of the Italian failure (same as in Balkans). They never sent a huge military force in Africa (the most axis forces in Africa were Italian) and they never sent the supplies, which Rommel desperetaly wanted. Stalingrand was a major destruction for Wehrmacht but according to many historians not the one,which turned the tide.This was Kursk.
In my opinion the reasons of German defeat are the following:
1)Hitler's strategical mistakes. Just think about the famous "Halt order" in Dunkirk, which allowed to 300000 experienced British and French troops to flee to England or the fact that he did not let Paulus to break out from Stalingrand and unite with von Manstein's forces.
2)The russian winter
3)The size of the soviet army
4)The industrial capabilities of USA and the fact that Luftwaffe could not bomb USA.

The most important of the above reasons is the first one. Just think of the military genius in the German army (Rommel, Von Manstein, Guderian etc) and what they could have achieved, if they don't have a stupid amateur like Hitler above them.

 

Faerus - I know exactly what you're talking about. I just thought I would focus on clearing up one misconception at a time. Trying to separate the difference between British involvement and Canadian involvement is a whole other ball game. For example, how many people are actually aware the the RCAF (Royal Canadian Air Force) was almost solely responsible for the successful defense of Britain during the Battle of Britain? I've posted this article before, but it's certainly worth mentioning again.

As for the two pilots, I think of their actions to criminal negligence. IIRC, they are both reservists, so being court-martialed might not be as big a blow to them as it would be to a professional military pilot. I think it also goes a long way to show the good faith of the US military system, as well as laying down the 'law': these types of actions are not exceptable, period. Although perhaps the use of part-time reservists in international combat zones needs to be re-considered to some extent.

BOC - just saw your post. As I said, and I think we agree on this although not necessarily on the specifics, the invasion of Russia was probably the key mistake - and this was Hitler's decision. Several of his general's tried to persuade him against it, but to no avail. With regard to North Africa, the main point was that the Germans *lost* Africa. And yes, in part it was lack of support (reinforcements, etc) for Rommel. Once the German (and yes Italian, but it was Rommel's tanks that were the key) forces in NA surrendered the whole of southern Europe was exposed. If Rommel had been able to hold Africa, then southern Europe would have been completely out of reach for the Allies. Instead, Italy fell and the German forces had to go on the defensive in Europe, which hadn't happened before. This bought the Allies time to plan and build up their invasion force. The year 1942 was the most difficult for the Allies, and it was the closest that the Axis powers came to complete and total victory. These strategic mistakes and key Allied victories are what gave them the time for the US' industrial capability to become a factor.

[ September 14, 2002, 22:03: Message edited by: Gnolyn Lochbreaker ]

 

Morgoth :"They did, probably layed down there by US Army afterwarths to have a "good" excuse for genocide"


Do you honestly believe this, or are you just trolling? If you do believe it, WHY?

 

AM theyre using that as excuse!!

If you bomb a village that´s bad!!
If you found some weapons afterwards then it´s "okay"!!

P.S. I´m not anti-America, I´m anti-America-government. OK, big difference between that.

[ September 15, 2002, 12:44: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

Morgoth, how the heck can "shooting guns in the air" be a wedding tradition? These nutjobs didn't have guns until we armed them to fight against the Russians. It's no ancient tradition.

And you honestly believe that they just kind of happened to fire into the air and didn't realize a jet was flying overhead? You're aware that even if they didn't see the jet that it does, in fact, make noise when it moves, right? They don't have Air Wolf's whisper mode just yet.

Yes, anti-aircraft guns were found in the village. I don't have the link anymore, but search www.washingtonpost.com.

 

Shralp is dead right. Firing guns into thre air is no tradition I've asked an Afghan Assylum seeker who just came to my school. He's quite a nice guy actualy. He said that although America and Britain killed some civilians during the months of the war, that is a small sacrafice to what the Taliban were putting these people through. These are his exactact words btw. He also said that firung guns into the air at a wedding was certainly no tradition in his villiage. He said that very few were harmed. There was some fighting in the hills and countryside. But all the Taliban in his villiage left for the south. Then in came the British soldiers without a shot fired. Now this is from a first hand source so i don't think even the heaviest anti-American could argue with this.