Another Discussion on Circumcision

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They do on the ones I have seen.

 

The practice does seem somewhat bizarre, when you think about it.

 

So do a great many things when you think about them.

 

One thing I've never understood about this issue is why anyone cares. I have never met a man who was "cut" who yearns for his foreskin. Babies don't have any choice in anything be it breastfeeding vs. formula or cirucumcision or not, and it is a very small percentage that end up in therapy because of it when they grow up (and that percentage is probably crazy from multiple things anyway).

It boils down to parental and cultural decisions and that is up for the parents to decide. In our case we are Jewish so Teen Snook had a lovely bris when he was a baby (the corned beef was excellent).

 

Like they say, you can't miss what you never had.

 

You rarely miss what you have never had, kinda hard to. I have seen interviews with men who do miss it though.

As I said, I think you should have let little Snook take the decision himself if he wants to enter a covenant with god by cutting off a part of his penis. Because when all things are said and done, how valuable is a decision when someone else took it for you? Shouldn't the covenant be between you and god? Not between your parents and god?

I feel the same way about baptism but since it doesn't involves surgery my feelings aren't as strong.

 

I'm not the best Jew in the world so I'm a little weak on the details. However, Judiasm isn't a covenant with God. It isn't something that you choose. It is something you are at birth. It is possible to become Jewish, but I don't believe it is as simple as deciding you are Jewish and going to a building (like many other religions). That is why there isn't any such thing as Jewish missionaries as we don't have "recruitment drives".

 

I don't think circumcision for non religious reasons is a good idea. Still, as far as religious reasons go that changes everything. I am a 'cradle catholic'. I grew into it.

I don't believe in letting kids 'make their own decision' on matters of religion since if you wait only long enough, it probably will be too late. Rather, give it to them so they have it on the way and can choose if or when to get rid of it. They may not and that'd be good.

Kids can make their choices when they have matured (at least nominally), everything before is education, and if you're Jewish or Muslim, your cultural and religious acclimatisation it includes irreversible things like circumcision. I absolutely accept that.

 

In what way?

 

The kid might have turned out a heathen! Or worse, it may later become a Charismatic Protestant! Or a Mormon. Or a Scientologist. Or a Tafkiri Muslim. And thinking of it, a few other things as well ...

Seriously, I think that growing up without religion makes religion less accessible later. I observe that with people from the (ex communist) eastern part of Germany. Many can't relate to this 'religion thing'.

I believe that knowledge of religion, and growing up in a religion, gives you a different perspective on the world and on history (in Europe in particular. Religion is essential to understand it right). I also think it is the 'right faith'. Mind you, I am a lapsed Catholic, but a Catholic nonetheless.

If a child then at a later time decides to go its own ways, well that's his choice as an adult. As long as it only not becomes becomes a Charismatic Protestant! Or a Mormon. Or a Scientologist. Or a Tafkiri Muslim. And thinking of it, a few other things as well ...

 

It seems a little unfair that a child's religion (and possibly the cosmetic surgery on his willy) is therefore going to be nothing more than an accident of where they were born and to what parents.

 

That's life.

The decision what college or school you go to determines in a way which friends you will make (and which friends you will not make). The decision to home school a child to protect it from Liberal bias and Liberal depravity may turn it into a Grande Douchebag Ignoramus (or things may turn out all right anyway, who knows). Your parent's job may in the same way impact where you grow up etc. pp. ...

There is a great element of chance and accident in life; for instance had I not met my ex gf I wouldn't have met some of my best friends.

 

Where you were born and to whom decides a lot about your life. What country you live in (or can realistically choose to live in when you grow up), whether you starve to death or not, what kind of education you get, whether you ever know what a stable government looks like, etc.

 

That's kind of where I am with my kid (both on the Catholic perspective, and my views on religion).

Jack was Christened as a baby in a Catholic Church, and I basically did it because A) it made the grandparents happy and B) I saw no possible harm that could come of it.

 

Aldeth, the "possible harm" may arise from the reinforcement of the labels that people can be defined by their religion. Jack is officially a Catholic now, so you've given him a label. There are already too many artificial labels in the world now, that give people excuses to discriminate or make prejudicial assessments of people. Oh, he's a Jew, steer clear. Or, oh, he's a Muslim, he'll blow us up. Oh, he's a Jehovah's Witness, shut the door now. Oh, he's a rapper, he must be in a gang. Labels create all sorts of harm every day in the world.

 

HB,

That seems a little extreme to me. Everyone has labels, and there's nothing you can do to avoid them. Simply existing is going to get you labelled. I'm a man. I'm white. I'm a second generation Italian American. I'm a Democrat.

You cannot avoid it. What is the harm with adding "nominally Catholic" to the end of the list?

 

"Catholic Pending"

When/If/Somehow I have a child (or multiples to start a vast multinational conspiracy) I would not willingly eliminate religion from their upbringing. I am deeply religious, my partner is not. I would not see fit to 'indoctrinate' my child but I would see fit to explain my beliefs and encourage understanding in what it means to me, why I do specific things and why I believe certain actions are prohibited.

My religion defines my moral values to an extent as well, which will also be passed on to my child. Something which may shape their religious choices in the future.

If a parent is religious, there isn't evading passing on certain values to offspring, while I do not personally have a reason to physically alter my child (I think this is one instance where "THE LOLS" is not an applicable reason) I can respect other faiths who see it as a requirement, what I would not find acceptable if it was purposefully painful. There are agents and methods that reduce the pain and stress of the ordeal and I think to forgo those for the sake of a personal faith isn't fair.

 

Ragusa, I beg to differ. Despite having been raised catholic, I am now a dedicated skeptic. Why on earth would I raise my children to believe something that I do not? It naturally follows that my children, raised to be as skeptical as their father, will likewise find religion "less accessible," but I see no reason to believe that this is a bad thing. I don't see it as any different than the religious folks who honestly believe that people without religion cannot have good moral values or that, without religion, society would descend into anarchy and chaos. In theory, if such people were raised agnostic, they'd "know better," but I doubt it. I personally believe that there are some people who take contradictory viewpoints in stride and some who not. I contend that an intolerant christian, if raised as an atheist, would probably be an intolerant atheist.

 

Why do we need even more labels? Being white and male are unavoidable. Slapping a religious label on a child before they have the ability to choose seems to be adding more labels for no reason.

See the "Is Obama a Muslim?" thread for further evidence of the waste of time and energy that goes into discussing what label the president should be stuck with.

 

As for "Is Obama a Muslim?" (or really an American citizen?) see my response here.