Archers are not the best missilers

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I wanted to find out two things:

(a) who is better in ranged-weapon combat – the archer or the pure missile weapon fighter ?
and:
(b) do halflings get bonusses for using shortswords and slings ? (in reference to another, related topic)

I created 3 sample chars, a human archer, a human pure fighter and a halfling pure fighter (all with identical stats and equipment (as far as possible)). The human fighter should work as the benchmark to compare the archer and halfling with – therefore the pumped-up weapon proficiencies.

Standard stats: 18/00; 18; 18; 10; 18; 8 (halfling: 17; 18; 18; 10; 17; 8 - for melee comparison I gave him the gauntlets of ogre power). I did the comparison in the ToB multiplayer so the chars had all 2.500.000 XP. I decided for a highlevel comparison for a simple reason: At that point the classes developed their skills to a point allowing to point out differences.

The sample char's weapon proficiencies:
-Archer, lvl-16: ***** w. longbows & crossbows; * longswords
-Human Fighter, lvl-18r: ***** w. longbows, crossbows, slings, short- and longswords
[Note: I compared the two chars at different levels – yet at the same XP, the fighter is 2 levels higher so he gets a general +2 on his THACO ! This has to be considered when comparing THACO in melee and archery]
-Halfling Fighter, lvl-18: ***** w. slings, short- and longswords


(a) I compared the archer to the fighter in melee and ranged weapon combat:

(aa) Archers and melee: When comparing the archer to the pure fighter (both had a longsword +1) I was surprised:
-archer: * in L'swords – base THACO 4, actual THACO 0, 2 attacks
-fighter: ***** in l'swords – base THACO 2; actual THACO –4; 5/2 attacks = 2 ½ attacks – just half an attack better !

(bb) Archers and ranged weapon combat:
(both chars had the same equipment, bows and ammo: Manabow +4, dex-18, bracers of archery, arrows of piercing – resulting in an equipment THACO bonus of: 4 + 2 + 2 + 4 = +12).

-archer: ***** in longbows – base THACO 4; actual THACO –15: ; 5/2 attacks.
-fighter: ***** in longbows – base THACO (note: he's 2 levels higher) 2, actual THACO –12, 5/2 attacks

Comments:
I felt that, especially later in the game, when your party usually encounters stronger, heavily armored opponents, the archer kit's extra damage brings him in a clear advantage when compared to a fighter; so imo the archer is clearly better in ranged combat than a fighter.
As for melee: With just half an attack behind and the little disadvantage in melee-THACO the archer is surprisingly powerful in melee, despite his * weapon proficiency. Considering his AC it has to be noted that he is not even made for that kind of stuff .... . When teaming with a high AC melee char, binding enemies in close combat (and keeping them away from the archer) an archer is an extremely powerful and very effective char.

(b) Halflings do not receive any boni with shortswords. But they do receive +1 on THACO when using slings – since they can have dex-19 this results in a total +2 THACO advantage for slingfighting.

[Note: heavy crossbows and slings have the same amount of attacks – they are just like melee attacks – 5/2 max; they do more damage-per-hit than a bow though]

***************************************

(c) Average damages (a brief sketch from the fight of the three vs. Illasera & friends, nothing calculated though):

-archer: 13 to 15 damage each hit
-fighter: 6 to 10 damage each hit
-slingfighter: 18 to 20 each hit (blunt damage)

That much about theoretical damage counting – the real game looks different: armored enemies with resistances, different damage types (different elemental, slashing/ piercing/ crushing) and, yes, shields and last but not least – the dice ...

That much for archers ans pure fighters - I'm curious about the comparisn between the throwing hammer-kensai and an archer by marnix.

 

Hmm.. This is exactly why I installed the "crack" that sets weapon proficiencies to AD&D rules. No archer can keep up with my fighters (Talking about melee I mean, I am a huge fan of archers myself, but they shouldnt be able to keep up frontline) . Which is good from roleplaying perspective, also from powergaming perspective, take your pick

 

Hi,

Good work Ragusa.

I am not surprised by the archer vs fighter melee difference, one star gives you the right to use the weapon, five stars give you +2 THACO and +4 damage plus a little extra speed and extra half attack. As you point out, at higher levels it makes only a small difference since THACO is good anyway. In BG1 five stars gave you +3 and +5 plus speed plus extra full attack.

Not sure about your attacks per round though for fighter and archer. Archer looks right at 2 per round. I thought fighter should be 3 per round though. Same for ranged attack as well.
My mistake Ragusa, I have checked and you are correct about those attacks per round.

I don't know what the possible bottom limit for an archers AC might be, but when I thought about it for my female elven archer I reckon I could acheive -8 by chapter 3 end. Thats not bad!

As far as THACO is concerned. I wnet through the monster manual checked some things in infinity explorer and I think the lowest AC you face is demogorgon at AC -12. Hence, when you have reached a THACO of -12 nothing better matters and you will only miss on a roll of 1 (that always misses).

The other nice thing about the archer is that he gets the two free points on dual wield from being a ranger. Hence, you can always use him as a dual wielder if you run out of arrows or you need to take out a missile immune beast. Give him Kundane in his offhand and away he goes.

I am just waiting for you to create that halfing slinger I mentioned. I felt sure he was just right as a companion for you evil halfing kensai .

Cheers,

WittyNewt.



[This message has been edited by wittynewt (edited November 15, 2001).]

 

the halfling slingfighter *you* suggested ??! HAH ! No way, you're too late http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000045.html
and http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001974.html


(the wonderful thing about having 1600+ posts is that you have plenty of opportunities to quote yourself )

 

Hi,

Those are some nice threads and some great discussions, why wasn't I on this board 6 months ago

I would prefer the sling of seeking and a gridle of strength myself, and just equip that +5 sling when I needed to. Add in bracers of archery and then gaxx and the bracers of lightning strike and he/she is all set. You are right about the other weapon choices though.

However, did you ever create him? That super duper slinger from halfing hell?

I think he will be my first halfing character in SOA, I'll let you know how I get on.

Cheers,

WittyNewt.