Atheism vs. Religion Dead Horse Beating Round 473!

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I'm good with that and it does mark a difference between agnostics and atheists.

Nonexistence is a unifying concept. Also religions can be very different, have very different beliefs, and still all fit under the broad definition of religion. I think many atheists can disagree (some on if "atheism" is an idea) but are all still atheists.

More than a little ironic, but I agree with you and am glad that most atheists I've met don't act that way (including a good friend of mine I hope to have lunch with next week). Unfortunately they may not be the ones who get/make airtime. A bit like how not every Republican is like Rush Limbaugh, but he gets attention and-sometimes-some sway.

Not calling it a religion. But it is made up a group of people and, as I experienced, they can be as ideological, mean, and all the other bad things people act like/do as anyone else. Saying it is an idea doesn't invalidate it to may any more than saying the theory of gravity, thinking that the sky is blue, guessing that most people have 2 arms and legs and so on are ideas.

Strikes me as a bunch of fuss over nothing, and possibly bad English/language use.

At that other site I saw it used as part of selective history via word games rather than outright denial certain events took place (though there was a bit of that too). That is one possible use/reason for saying atheism isn't an idea but it doesn't seem to be a particularly positive one and not one other atheists would endorse when being open about history.

 

Could your rewrite this sentence? It makes no sense to me.

I have seen very few organizations for atheists, in fact I know of none -- I've never been to a meeting, ritual, seminar, or class; I've never received an atheist newsletter, pamphlet, book, or invitation to a social event. I'm not sure how you can call atheist a "group" when there is no membership or organization.

 

I believe Richard Dawkins heads one. There are also atheist conventions (one of the posts with the website I linked to mentioned one). I think I've seen an atheist pamphlet at one of the booths at the state fair I go to a few years back (looked for them again this year but didn't see them)-if it wasn't atheism it was certainly "secular humanism" (noting there is/could be a difference). I've seen & heard of plenty of books by atheist authors promoting their undersandings/cause/feeling/agenda (especially in terms of those on a "crusade" so to speak).

And that doesn't include informal stuff that we may not hear/see such as clubs/social networks/groups of friends. I would say atheism isn't a hierarchy or single organization but it does have people who function as organizers, editors/organizers of thought, spokesmen and so on.


The group I referred to in specific I don't think represent you (and I apologize if you took my reference to them as implying they did). But they do show how people within the same school of thought/cause/group can do bad things in that school of thought/cause/group. Sorry if that last bit is after Zaid's good summary of what they may have been doing.

 

Y'know, I never saw any of those for any of my pick-up soccer games, either, but you could easily argue there was a group of us. Seriously, T2, you need to revisit your definitions.

 

Once a pick up game become organized it is a group. I've never seen a "group" of atheists. If you want to call people who never get together and have no affiliations a "group" then I believe you need to revise your definitions.

 

You've never seen atheists get together? Wow, you must be awefully isolated. Now, I'll admit there are fringes to the atheist community, people who don't really know who's who or where what happens, but the same can be said about members of any religion or most any other organization. They're still groups, though.

 

I think T2 is pointing out that while there may be some groups of people who are atheists and meet regularly, atheists as a whole are not a group. This is a valid point, and the same is also true of Theists. Atheists are not in any way tethered to a system of common values or beliefs. While some may elect to come together in support of some particular set of values, this would be more akin to Christians going to meeting than all the atheists of the world agreeing on a cohesive set of values or ideas. The only thing that binds atheists together is their shared disbelief in God. Call them a "group" if you wish, but don't be surprised when I decide to "group" you with Satanists, Santaria practitioners, the human-sacrificing Aztecs and Incas, and the adherents of Wahabi Islam. They're all theists like you, so you share the same basic values, right?

 

Yeah, that's it NOG. I'm awefully isolated here in Chicago.

 

Drew, that again depends on how you define atheist. And again, I'm forced to ask what you do call the specific group of people who believe there are no gods, that they don't exist? By your definition, we can't call that group 'atheism', because that's actually a larger group. By most of the online dictionaries I've found, atheism can be used either way: to identify the larger non-theist group or the smaller anti-gods group. Of course, such a fluid term isn't useful in this discussion.

As for groupings, you need to identify what the group shares, be it a millitant outlook, a belief or disbelief in higher beings, or a liking for soccer. Usually, what you call a group (such as theists or atheists) identifies what they share. Yes, the Incan religion and Christianity both share a certain base belief (there are higher beings), but beyond that there isn't really much in common. Likewise, all atheists share a certain belief (depending on your definition), even if that's just a belief that there is insufficient evidence to come to a conclusion on deities.

T2, you are as connected or isolated from a community as you choose to be. You could live in Appalachia and as long as you have internet be connected, or you could live in LA and not be connected.

 

I do not actively seek out affiliations based on religion (or non-religion). However I am quite connected to the community in various activities (all non-religious).

I have never received a pamphlet in the mail inviting me to an atheistic service -- I've received hundreds from various churches. I have never had two young men with name tags come to my door saying, "What do you know about God? Would you like to know less?" But I have had missionaries from two different religions come by. I've never had someone from the Atheists Youth Society (or anything close) try to sell me magazine subscriptions -- every year I end up having more magazines than I need from various religious groups.

Perhaps the atheists in this area are either not organized or don't really want to disturb others.

 

If someone actually asked me to what religious group I belong to, I'd probably answer Christian, since I was born one, confirmed as one and still belong to the Church. If someone on the other hand asked me what my religious beliefs were, my answer would be completely different.

I identify myself with Christians because of the cultural background and if I ever get married that will probably happen within a Church. I'm not a practicing Christian though and religion is not an active part of my life and I never attend Church (except for marriages, funerals, baptizing and confirmations). Nor would I ever seek councel from a priest in other than arranging some of the afforementioned events. I also don't agree with many of the core values of my church.

I'm not exactly an atheist though since I'm quite uncaring about religion in general, if there's a God he should give me a good reason for caring about him and if there ain't then all the same. Atleast I won't have wasted my time with any active worship of an nonexistant deity.

In any case I suppose the point was that an agnostic and I suppose an atheist for that matter might identify themselves more as Christians because of the cultural background. Even if they aren't Christians then there are probably social or political terms that describe them better than being atheists, since atheism has little to no cultural background in most cases. Of course I'm sure some people do grow up in an atheist but I think it's probably very rare in most of the western world.

 

T2, were they from the Mormons or JWs? I've met both but I hardly consider that an education of the religious world.

I'm sure you could learn a good bit about what they believe in specific, but I would say they are a far cry from every understanding of religion-let alone Christianity.

I'm not sure how long you and NOG have been going back and forth but there is a bit about atheism that I pointed out that you didn't seem to know. As someone not an expert on atheism myself I don't claim to be the ultimate authority on it. But there are a few things that I can see and find valid matches to in the world outside of the discussion on religion. I don't know what your personal atheism is or how it came about but I have found more evidence for some levels/types of organization than you seem to have realized existed. So even if you weren't part of it and it isn't as likely to appear as a JW that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

What is all the fuss about calling atheism a what it (in at least some ways) appears to be? This description itself doesn't say it is wrong or right as an idea.

NOG

Please let him answer this one without jumping in on a comment. You 2 have been discussing this a while and I don't want it to get into a tit for tat thing that actually doesn't address this.

Morgoroth

Actually if you look to my earlier comments (sometimes back a few pages I know) I referred to someone who had been raised atheist. I think it is possible to find someone like that in Eastern Europe and (depending on where) more of Western Europe as well (though only much more recently).

 

I'm sorry, pplr, but I have to say just one thing: it seems the atheist community (like many these days) is more internet based than locality based. Do a quick google search on atheist community, or atheist organizations, or anything of the like. For a comparison, I never recieved any kind of communications or offers from the engineering community until I joined the AIAA (aerospace engineering). After that, I started recieving two monthly magazines and near-daily emails. I've also gotten phone calls and letters. And not just from the AIAA, but from all sorts of organizations. Now, I've never had anyone knock on my door asking, "Would you like to know more about chemical engineering", but that's just not our style.

 

I'm sure it is, however I did not state it as impossible I said it was rare. I'm not sure where you're from and what your expiriences have been in actually visiting Eastern Europe but most countries there are these days quite Christian, in many cases more so than countries in Western Europe.

 

Morgoroth, I'll admit I've never been to any, but from the people I've spoken to who have been (several of them people my age who were working in the US part time), the eastern European countries are still heavily secular, and many are still staunchly atheist. Several of the girls I knew from Ukraine, Latvia, and Belarus talked about atheism being officially taught in public schools, of people being socially ostracized (and in some cases even beaten) for admitting to being religious, and the like. I don't know how common such things were, or if they were local effects as opposed to official national policies, but they did happen, and recently.

 

If they went to school when these parts were part of the Soviet Union then I believe you, otherwise I'm inclined to suggest that what you heard was a bunch of lies (except for Belarus, which I can well believe, but Belarus does not exactly give a fair picture of Eastern Europe being a blatant dictatorship and all). How you can call countries that have a majority Christian population (with a a big marigin, in the case of Ukraine the Christians amount well over 90% of the population) as somehow atheist is beyond me.

EDIT: One thing to bear in mind with these regions are that they are ethnically diverse, minorities are often in a difficult position in these countries and I can believe that a Russian Orthodox student in Latvia might get to trouble because of his beliefs, this however has nothing to do with the atheist policy of that country but rather the ethnic conflict between Latvians and those of Russian origin.

 

How can you teach atheism?
You can teach people to think for themselves. You can teach people logic and argument. You can teach people to question what they are told. But teaching atheism is, due to its very nature, a contradiction. Indeed, teaching the above may lead to religion rather than atheism.

 

The same way, if you want to, you teach an other idea or ideology. It isn't surprising that atheism was taught during the Soviet Union's days (proof that it is far from impossible).

If you want a specific example, a woman who lived/grew up in one of the former Soviet states and came to the USA that I've spoken with told me that they (teachers doing the "educating") would say things like religion is just lies and those who are educated/smart know better.

"Atheism" isn't teaching how to argue or debate things. That can come from teaching debate and inquiry. You don't need to be atheist to do either.

Atheism is the idea there is no God, if you stick a bunch of proAtheism propaganda in a class (such as what happened with the woman I mentioned) then you are trying to teach atheism.

Rotku how much of the prior discussion have you read through?

 

Now I may shoot a bunch of the other unbelievers here in the foot but that is pretty much how I and very many people view religion. We may be too polite to not say it out loud but it is the logical conclusion after you decide that you do not believe in a god. As I have said here many times before I equate a belief in god (any god) with belief in Santa Claus. They are equally valid or if you prefer, invalid.

 

Exactly, and if it is taught as fact in school, it's is teaching atheism. Just like I, once the conclusion of God is reached, view the Bible and it's teachings as the logical manifestation of that deity, but such ideas are still taught.