Attack on Falluja gets under way

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reduced to rubble is better for them, better to let it be destroyed then let americans set foot in it

 

Well, if I some dudes from a country comes and attacks I would see to it to that those bastards would have to walk over my corpse before they take anything I holds dear, like the curch I am a member of.

But then, I am a psycho IYHO.

 

Are only muslims allowed in mosques?

 

no, but then, most mosques arent controlled by fanatics

 

Well, sometimes they let the women in, as long as they sit in the back and behave themsleves.

Jefferson made his famous (or infamous) comment after he received news that the French Revolution had become a "bloody mess." He was referring to the struggle between freedom and oppression, which in his mind was: freedom versus oppression = good versus evil. Jefferson hated war, but thought revolution, from time-to-time, was a good idea. IMO, Jefferson's remark was unfortunate because it made him appear insensitive to the suffering and excesses of the revolution in France, which at the beginning he was actually a part of. When it ended with the rise Napoleon (the exact opposite of what he had hoped for), and what John Adams had warned him would happen, Jefferson remarked, "it is what it is."

Jefferson also asked America to "run the race of peace." And this:

"Peace is our passion. I have ever cherished the same spirit with all nations from consciousness that peace, prosperity, liberty and morals, have an intimate connection. From the moment that sealed our peace and independence, our nation has wisely pursued the paths of peace and justice. Peace and justice should be the polar stars of American societies."

And this one:

"The happiness of mankind is best promoted by the useful pursuits of peace. Go and do with your pen what in other times has been done with the sword; show that reformation is more practicable by operation of the mind than on the body of man." That was one of his better comments, IMO.

 

It's hard to see the Sunni militants as Iraqi freedom fighters. Sunni freedom fighters maybe, if freedom is viewed in some kind of Baathist/fundamentalist light, but I doubt if you'd find many Kurds, or even a sizable percentage of Shia, who would hold that these Sunnis are fighting for the freedom of all Iraqis.

If the Sunni militants are freedom fighters, does that make the Kurdish militias oppression fighters? I can buy the argument that the US has screwed up a number of things, or that it might end up setting off a full-blown civil war, but the "Iraqi freedom fighter" argument seems like nonsense to me in light of the ethnic makeup and history of Iraq.

 

Just heard from the news, the city is practically taken, but 90% of the insurgents have fled, with the main target(can't remember his name, al-Za... something) amongst those who have fled.

America anti-terrorism at it's best.

 

they are fighting for what they see as iraqi freedom, just like we invaded for what we see as freedom.

and if my history serves me right, the kurds were the agressors in the hostilities with iraq when under the impression that the US would back them, they attacked a iraqi police station in northern iraq killing all inside - i know how the US would have reacted, they would have had helecopters shooting into groups of 'armed terrorists' too

 

Meh...I'm gone one night, and there's already soo many posts to reply to.

@BTA: I don't really know how to say this without appearing really really biased towards the insurgents, and seemingly irrational, but I will say it anyway, and stuff it if I sound fanatical.

The only way you can know what it is like to have your religion violated, your fellow brothers (religion wise of course) being pretty much slaughtered everyday, your sacred places of worship destroyed to kill people apparently hiding inside...is if it happens to you. You do not know what it feels like seeing the things I do on TV. You are obviously unaffected, and neither am I. But, there is a sense of...shall we say 'brotherhood' between fellow Muslims, and all I can say is I am not the only person who feels this.

And, for all those people saying it doesn't make sense to lose people to save buildings, let's just say this.

Total insurgents killed 1600+.

Total American casualties, according to some hotshot from the army (as seen on ABC today evening), is less than 30.

Oh and, you should have a look at the hospitals of Red Cross where the injured women and children are being treated...the women and children who were shot by the Americans when they were trying to leave Falluja.

If you expect me to ever have any respect for the American government and the American people who support this, that is not going to happen.

@Dendri: Thanks mate, I appreciate the support.

@BTA again:

In response to that, I can only say this.

The US wanted to free Iraq of Saddam Hussein. Kinda stupid considering they're the idiots who put him into power in the first place...but anyway, they have achieved that. Now that they have, the Iraqi people want America to get the **** out of their land. And the US doesn't get the message. So much so, that they continue to be the cause of the urban guerilla warfare perpetrated by the insurgents against the foreign people in Iraq.

If they'd just get out of there, and let the country manage itself according to its own devices, the people would be happy. Even if they DID degenerate into anarchy, like the US fears, they wont blame anyone but themselves. The point here is, the US is viewed as a foreign invader in a foreign land, and because of that, I am one-sided'...

I am 'one-sided' and 'biased' because I hate what the US is doing in Iraq from my gut. If the US would atleast try to keep up appearances that it cares for the culture and people of Iraq, rather than just throwing their red-necked weight around, then maybe one could get angry at both sides. But since that isn't happening, me, and millions of Muslims around the world, are going to continue being 'one-sided' and 'biased'.

@Abomination: Muslims are not the only ones allowed in mosques...there's heaps of mosques in the Middle East which are major historical monuments, and are very actively promoted for tourism...albeit under strict supervision to preserve their good condition. Women are also allowed, and unlike what Chandos the Red said, women are allowed in the Mosques as well. They don't "sit in the back" like he said, there's separate sections in the Mosque for them, mainly because it is improper for the women to be seated with the men...but that's just Islamic culture.

Again in summation...America has achieved what it wanted it Falluja. As we all know, the city is pretty much taken. But you know what has happened there, and at what cost to the innocents of Iraq. I can only say that today, I hate America a little more than I did yesterday...

 

"I hate America a little more than I did yesterday... "

and so does the rest of the world

 

Actually, I knew that, and I should have been clear that my jest was mostly a jest over the need for reform. I have had this argument with other Muslims here in America - where the women are still not allowed to sit with the men. But the point of my jest still stands: how can Muslim men speak of freedom as long as they keep half of their own citizens in servitude?

 

So they've gone back and corrected a mistake.

If the US was to just pack up and leave then they would be hated even more. They are currently there to fix a mess they created and make the country a better place. Unfortunatly there are some people who don't want it to be a better place or have a different opinion of a better place... and those people kill police officers showing that they obviously don't understand how to make somewhere a better place.

 

no, they kill police officers because they represent the government of iraqis which conspire with the US against all iraqi freedom.

"So they've gone back and corrected a mistake"
the lesser of 2 evils, iraq and iran.... who was the lesser evil this time, seems like theyre causing the US more problems then saddam ever could have

 

@Abomination: Mate, the Iraqi people are obviously going to kill the people they see as traitors, because they are pretty much the Americans' lapdogs. Same goes for Allawi...they are punishing them because they see them as an extension of the American influence in Iraq.

The same thing happened in India, during the 1940's prior to Indian independence. There were a LOT of Indians serving the British in the police forces and the army. They faced the same repercussions that the British did during that period.

@Chandos: Mate, its not 'holding them in servitude'...it is the distinction between men and women. Mutual respect and all that. Of course, it gets taken to extremes, which is when it might seem like servitude of half the citizens...but its Islamic culture. The Quran tells you explicitly, that there's stuff only men do and there's stuff only women do...and theres some stuff where the two just dont mix.

 

You actually believe this dribble? What is "Iraqi freedom"? The Iraqi people haven't been free for a long damn time. Now all of a sudden they're fighting to protect it? Conspire? You make it sound they're doing something in secret. Secretly what? Secretly introducing democracy? Isn't much of a secret.

How does wanting to restore order to your country make you a lapdog for somebody else? They have no right to 'punish' people. No moral grounds what so ever to kill innocents.

 

And if that happened today, I would feel as bad as I feel for the dead traitors of Iraq, nothing at all.

However, the civilian casualties in Iraq, they I don't condone, not for a second.

 

Aye...I don't either Caleb. And if you will notice, it is THEIR deaths that anger me the most. Pointless deaths, just to drive home the point that the US is not wanted.

I know that if America pull out, things will get nightmarish as far as the government is concerned, but atleast those killings will stop.

Edit: @Abomination: I didn't see your post there...

Well...what I make of the situation, is that nothing we say or don't say here is going to make any difference in Iraq anyway...so why get all hot and bothered, eh?

One point I will make, however is this...

Look at it from the point of view of the anti-US folks. Because they are assisting the US, they are seen as 'traitors'. And I am not saying that what the insurgents are doing is right either. Bombing your fellow countrymen will not get you the freedom you are fighting for, and for that, I admit that they deserve to be killed. The major reason why I am against the US invasion of Fallujah, is the destruction of those mosques. Its offensive in a way that is hard to describe.

 

It seems to me it's a question of who represents "the Iraqi people." Is it the Sunni or the Shia, the Kurds or the Arabs, the religious or the secular, the north, the center or the south? Every group in Iraq seems to hold a claim on representing "the Iraqi people." The question is, will this "representation" come in the form of elections or bombs?

 

Like I said, the violent terrorist-like folk (aka insurgents) need to be brought in hand, in the interest of the Iraqi people.

However...its just the mosque destruction...WHY did they have to do that?