Balanced Party

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I agree with Bard that many mages in a party makes it difficult to manage properly. Very often the potential ends up wasted.
For example, a single sorcerer in your party can very easily turn the rest of the party into bystanders as he easily handles almost every battle himself. For this reason I find it very enjoyable to play a solo sorcerer, but when using one in a party I deliberately do not use him to his full potential.

 

I solo a lot of the time, but my parties usually consist of:

1 Tank
1 Paladin
1 Fighter or Fighter Kit
1 Mage
1 Thief
1 Sorcerer

This is because I can have the tanks, fighters, thiefs do their normal job, I can have the sorcerer concentrate on anti mage spells and spells good for interrupting mages. I could use my mage for jolly-goodness spells that are in general helpful. It's just the best way I think.

 

But you see, that's what the cleric/mage in my balanced party is for even though I have a pure cleric and mage. It can use the utility mage spells, but do something a thief can't do: wear heavy armor when the mage spells are not in use but still cast the cleric spells. And later on, it can even use Elven Chainmail which removes its only disadvantage. It fills the role the thief would, but is far more versatile and has more uses for various situations.

Anyway, if you're playing a good party, the only option for a mage is to take a thief/mage (Nalia or Imoen) unless your PC is going to be that role. The only pure mage is an evil character. So the point is really moot.

[ June 24, 2004, 07:07: Message edited by: RangerFox ]

 

RangerFox wrote:

But the are dual classed - at 5k and 40k xp respectively - and not multiclass, so what makes you think that is worse than a single class mage?

@GodRules44
You really should consider using a cleric, unless the generic "tank" you list is in fact a cleric. Chaotic Commands, Death Ward and many more are excellent very long lasting spells which it pays to always cast before adventuring. Don't think of a cleric as a healer but as someone who protects and improves the characters. They make excellent tanks since it's easy to get the AC very low.

[ June 24, 2004, 12:17: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

Well, as for Nalia, she isn't set up to act as a party thief. The only good her thief levels does is to allow her to use a bow or something which is pointless for a mage that's going to go all out offensively. Might as well have a pure mage for more spells.

And Imoen, I can't stand her personality and that's reason enough for me not to use her. But besides that, without a modded game, she has less skill points than she should which makes her less appealing to me than simply taking Jan Jansen for his perks or using an assassin PC.

 

Nalia has no less spells than any other pure mage. Unless, of course, you mean a specialist mage. Nalia's skills could just about get you through the game, with a few potions, if need be. She is however the best good mage in the game. The only mage that is better than her in the whole game is Edwin. Nalia does have some other advantages - better HP, better choice of armour (could wear elven chain if required), +2AC on her ring for better protection.

Imoen is adequate enough to get you through the game. If you want better thief skills you need Jan or the PC, but most people don't use thieves this way.

Taking either (or both) of these two and you have just enough thief skills for the game, you don't waste any spell slots to silly spells that could be better utilised for other purposes and you get two very capable mages.

 

Nalia's ring isn't quite that great, when you consider that you got all those mage spells as buffs that make the ring look like nothing. Nalia is the best good mage normally, but I would trade her for a specialist pure mage so I could cast the buffs more often if I was creating more than one character by using multiplayer mode.

I don't consider it wasting spell slots, because Knock is a level 2 spell and that isn't really one of the best levels for options to me. Plus, that's why I have two mages and not one. A utility mage and a caster mage. And traps are not dangerous or common enough to even need a thief for that purpose, as I said.

I'm entirely forgetting one thing in this too, if the spell slots are really that big of a bother, I could simply have one of my fighter characters equipped with ogre gauntlets or Crom Faeyr bash the lock.

 

RangerFox wrote:

How can you come to that conclusion?
Nalia and Imoen are pure mages and as an extra bonus they are also thieves. The only drawback is the insignificant xp spent on the thief class.

For the record; I think Imoen is better than Nalia.

 

Well, obviously Imoen is better. You may get her at a slightly lower level that the rest of the party, but Nalia dual-classed to mage a level 4, whereas Imoen dual-classed to a mage at level 7. That means Imoen effectively has 75 more thief skill points than Nalia. I find that I always have to use potions and other items to get me through the game with Nalia, but Imoen can do just about everything without using potions. I usually carry around a few thief-specific rings just in case, but generally, she doesn't need them.

I also completely disagree with not needing a thief. Yes, you can have other party members detect traps and open chests through the use of spells, but you have no means of avoiding the damage from those traps. Most high HP characters can survive the damage, but then that turns your cleric into basically a healer. You'll really only have level 2 spell slots for non-healing spells (and most of them will be find traps), which is really limiting his potential.

 

@Earl Grey: Imoen is a better Thief, but not a better mage. Nalia started as mage earlier and, by the time you get Imoen back, Nalia will be a higher level and have far more spells. You need to think of Nalia as a pure mage and NOT as a replacement for Imoen this way you can get the most out of her.

I would normally have a pure-mage and a backup-mage in my party. So I would possible take Nalia as pure mage and Imoen as backup (and do thieving as well). Or have the PC as a thief and take Aerie as a cleric/mage.

 

IMHO, Nalia is better than Imoen. Nalia has the most useful starting spell arsenal in the game. (for all your casting needs... just dont forget to pick up a Magic Missile Scroll from some random goblin corpse you've run over).
She also has a distinct advantage over Edwin at low-mid levels since she can perform other funtions and isn't dead weight without her spells.

If you happen to have Nalia and Immy having the same spells, items and XP then Nalia doesn't stand a chance... But you're going to have to work very hard to make that happen and I don't think it's worth the effort.

 

The Imoen vs Nalia controversy

- Stats
Imoen has 2 Wisdom and 3 Charisma extra.
Nalia has 5 Strength extra.

Imoen has 3-4 more HP's than Nalia. Nalia partly makes up for it by being roughly a level higher, which means in practice the difference is 2-3 HP's in Imoen's advantage.

- D'Arnisse Signet Ring
Basically a Ring of Protection +2. The 50% Fire resistance is a nice little bonus. The drawback is that it can't be removed, but the advantage is that there is really no better ring for her to wear. Ring of Gaxx is so good for fighter types that it'd be a waste to use it on a mage.
Note that a protection ring/cloak/amulet can be worn in addition to the D'Arnisse Signet Ring!

Difference in Theif skills:
Lock: 95 Imoen - 60 Nalia
Traps: 85 Imoen - 80 Nalia
PP: 25 Imoen - 35 Nalia
MS: 30 Imoen - 20 Nalia
HS: 25 Imoen - 15 Nalia
Backstab mod: x3 Imoen - x2 Nalia
(The other skills are equal)
(It's well known that Imoen should have more skill points. Make sure you fix that.)

Weapon Proficiencies:
Imoen: Staff, Dagger, Short Bow, Dart
Nalia: Staff, Dagger, Short Bow, Short Sword

I think their selection of spells are equally good and besides it's irrelevant since you should always get scrolls for your mages to scribe.

Here are their starting spell books, showing the minimal differences:

Imoen (at start) Thi-7 -> Mag-8
1: Chr Orb, Identify, Armor, Magic Missile
2: Melf's AA, Mirror Image, Strength, Web, Stinking Cloud
3: Haste, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Monster S I, Remove Magic
4: FS Blue, FS Red, Stoneskin, Impr Invisibility, Minor Globe
5: Chaos, Domination, Breach, Monster S III

Nalia (at start) Thi-4 -> Mag-9
1: Chr Orb, Identify, Burn Hands, Color Spray, Shocking Grasp
2: Melf's AA, Mirror Image, Strength, Web, Knock
3: Haste, Lightning Bolt, Flame Arrow, Hold Person, Slow
4: FS Blue, FS Red, Stoneskin, Poly Other, Poly Self
5: Chaos, Domination, Cloudkill, Shadow Door
6: Disintegrate, Stone to Flesh
7: Project Image
(Nalia is too low level to cast level 6 and 7 spells.)

Imoen (1.2M xp version) Thi-7 -> Mag-13
As the starting spellbook plus these:
5: Shadow Door
6: Chain Lightning, Contingency, Mislead

Assuming you mean castable spells per day I would say Nalia - due to her being roughly a level higher than Imoen - has a few more spells and not far more.
The number of spells in the spellbook means nothing since you should carry one or more full scroll cases for Imoen to scribe. At the very least you should bring her scrolls of the few important spells you want her to have.

IMO the most annoying thing about Imoen is all the Quest xp rewards that she loses out on in chapters 2 and 3.
OTOH Imoen plays such a great part in the storyline that choosing Nalia over her is extremely hard to do.

In my latest game the party looked like this directly after picking up Imoen:
F/M/T - 2.7M xp
Keldorn - 1.9M xp
Sir Anomen - 1.7M xp
Tashia - 1.7M xp
Imoen - 1.2M xp

In conclusion, the reason I think Imoen is better than Nalia is not an opinion strongly supported by facts, but rather that I value Imoen's thieving skills and importance in the storyline higher than the one extra mage level which Nalia typically has.

 

Why not take both? Nalia as primary mage and Imoen as backup mage and thief.

 

Nice facts.

The most annoying thing, I think, is the fact that she isn't there to prove her weight in the quests at all. At the game's early points you desperately need a Mage (preferably one who can has other skills besides spellflinging/waiting for the next resting), and Nalia's the best one for the job. Dont forget the item/scroll rewards also... why save a scroll for Immy when Nalia can put these spells to good use right here and now?
Normally by the time I reach Immy I'd have refined Nalia as the party's Mage.

If Imoen's in my protagonist's party its not because she's a mage or a thief, or because she's also Bhaalspawn. It's because she's my character's sister. You forgot her roleplaying value - which is the only thing I think which makes her much more important to me than Nalia.

 

Here's one thing I don't understand. A little but it needs to be said. Why don't people who want Imoen in their party rush to Spellhold? You can easily retrieve Imoen from Spellhold and still have the average XP of your party far below 1.2 million XP. In that case, she isn't behind at all.

 

The kind of party i prefer most.

1 Fighter(paladin), because you always need one in the front.
1 Thief, how do you want to find and disarm all those traps and containers?
1 Mage, because melee head-on is just not enough.
1 Cleric or druid, how do you want to be healed and protected by defense spells?
And the rest doesn't really matter.

 

The Paladin and Cleric up-front are a good combination. The Paladin gets in and fights, the cleric heals and fights if necessary. Both have good AC to create a small wall if necessary. The thied uses ranged weapons and the mage destroys the enemy.

Your two slots, seem to be where the big debate is... more fighters or more mages? I would choose 1 fighter, fighter/mage or cleric/mage and 1 bard (you always need a bard ). Mazzy is a great support character, a great fighter and probably the best archer in the game.

All bases covered, good AC up-front and a ton of magic bombardment and good ranged support.

I love this game as there are just so many possible combinations.

 

You see, to me that thinking is too linear. Yes, you do need at least one of the major classes. So most people start by saying they want at least:

1 mage/sorcerer
1 cleric/druid
1 fighter/ranger/paladin/barbarian/monk
1 thief/bard

However, that fails to address that one person could fill more than one role. For example, a fighter/thief can stand in the front line, and still give you as much thief as you need. Similarly a fighter/cleric or ranger/cleric can be nearly as good of a tank as a regular fighter or regular ranger, and provide healing and buffs to the party.

So for me it gets down to importance. The two most important classes where you want people specialized are the fighting arts, and the arcane magic. So I agree in principle, that you do need a good fighter-type and a good mage/sorcerer type. However, as far as druids, clerics and thieves go, I think these classes are better when paired with something else, typically one of the two primarily important classes.

 

Well, one extra fighter-cleric-ranger, would be fine, and then a multi class would be fine, a druid/fighter i think, because i always saw that Jaheira was pretty good, so my last choice would be obvious.

 

@Aldeth: that is sort of what I was trying to say. You don't have to have lots of fighters in the party as Clerics can make excellent tanks (after all they have the same AC).

Cleric/Ranger is an awesome class and so is Fighter/Druid and either of these would be great on the front-line. I prefer Cleric/Ranger, as with F/D you have to wait ages for the really great spells (unless you dual-class then these are awesome).

As you pointed out, and I was trying to get at with this thread is that you can get along with less fighters and have the back rows filled with more interesting classes, that can give more battlefield support (mages, bards, clerics, cleric/mages, etc).