Bashing Atheists?

There are renegades in ALL groups. Probably most Aetheists just quietly go about their lives without openly mocking the religious, just as most Christians don't own slaves or kill people. War is a touchy subject, and is important to defend your nation, but you would be morally wrong to take the name of God to justify beating the hell out of another nation just for greed or ambition.

I can't prove that we, the devout are right, but you can't prove that I'm wrong either. I stand behind my faith.

 

I might be wrong, but it seems like you are an athiest that bashes religious people, no matter what their path they take.

I don't think anyone really worships the Tuatha Dé Danann gods anymore, though silly wiccans seem to have a fixation with mixing Morrigan with Egyptian and Greek gods

I think I am allowed to have a strong interest in celtic mythology and the story of Ogma is facinating as you can see carved Ogham stones around Ireland in ancient Gaelic. Ogma is said to be the inventor of our languages.

 

Anyone with a convicition of some sort is bound to be bashed by someonbe with an opposing conviction.

*hands in her $ .02*

 

I'm proud to proclaim I'm 0% religious and 100% scientifious. School tends to do that.

By the way, aren't there still some states in US that forbid teaching about human evolution? About humans being descendants of apes? I can understand that from those 'rather primitive' muslim countries, but it's kind of funny that there are such bans in US too.

 

An interest in something is not the same as worship though. I can have an interest in Greek Mythology for the stories, but that doesn't mean I worship the Greek Pantheon...

That's part of the problem. As soon as someone stands up for something, they become a target for people that disagree or don't like their position. Don't these other people have better things to do?

Those are states with Strong Religious factions that use their influence to keep certain things considered abominations or blasphemy out of the class room so students can learn more important things.

 

The general rule for things is that each is entitled to their own opinion, and as long as someone doesn't hurt another, they can do and think and say whatever they want. It isn't that simple, however. Beliefs and attitudes are often mutually exclusive. The best example would be the question of "good" vs "evil", or "humanity" vs "inhumanity". Should retarded people be allowed to breed? How about very stupid people, or those with attitude problems? The poor, the unlucky, the lazy, compared against the rich etc? As always I'm bad at expressing myself, but the point here is that there are numerous 'good' things that really lead to more bad things in the end. People prefer to do 'something' and feel good about themselves, even though they'd know with further thinking that they're only making matters worse in the end.

Ok I'm straying away from the subject here again. It doesn't work. Opinions are one thing, but every person has beliefs. Strong, absolute princibles that define their lives. Someone who believes in god and salvation etc fully, cannot simply watch by when someone else believes in nothing and is effectively committing a suicide to eternal damnation because of their ignorance. Just by the same book, someone watching a rape probably won't just assume that it's nature doing its job and it isn't his business to intervene. Although thinking like that would not really be wrong, the world is cruel afterall.

We *can't* all get along. Every one of us has buttons that can be pressed to cause a reaction we would never expect of ourselves. Attempts to understand each other better can be made, and certainly it can be effective to a certain point. But the difference is just too big with some.

Criminals, violent maniacs etc are not here just to cause trouble and be evil. They are a form of evolution, tests and safeguards. They exist for a reason. But does that mean a normal person should accept it and say "hi, let's agree to disagree while you just stab me to death ok?" No, it doesn't.

Try to remain civil and understanding, try to think beyond your most narrow viewpoint. But when someone crosses the border that is what you are, when someone threatens your own psyche with their beliefs and actions, do the only thing you can do: defend yourself.

I haven't been put to that situation myself, but I know it's there. And likely some day someone else's good vision of the world will have to fight against mine, even if neither of us are really wrong.

 

Actually, AFAIK there are no states that ban the teaching of evolution. Kansas is currently considering a requirement to teach Intelligent Design on par with Evolution, but I don't think a decision's been made yet.

Gnarff, why should one faction have the privilege of defining what's "abominations", "blasphemy," or "important" for everyone IN A PUBLIC SETTING? I'll defend to the death your right to teach what you like within the privacy of your own home and church, but please don't make me listen to it in a public setting, especially one with a captive audience like a public school.

@Foradasthar: How well-said! I've been pondering a similar post, but you leave me with almost nothing to add. Almost, that is...

What is an opinion? It's a conclusion that an individual reaches when s/he analyzes a set of fact in the context of his/her life experiences. No one's opinion is absolutely right or absolutely wrong. We all (me included!) need to keep that in mind both when we're expressing our own opinions and when we're responding to someone else's.

[ July 05, 2005, 14:29: Message edited by: Rallymama ]

 

Rally, you are so right. The founding fathers of the USA tried to make sure of two things. !) The government would not infringe on the rights of religion. 2) One religion would not dominate over others.

Christianity itself includes a broad spectrum of beliefs/dogma. There are other religions besides Christianity and (horrors ) there are even people with no religious beliefs.

The rest of us have rights too!

I also would hate to see us return to the hyprocrisy of the pre 60's which by the way I fought against in my own small way.

 

That is exactly the reason many Christians take up the cause to defend Christianity.

And I don't seek to push buttons, but being a bull in a shop filled with fragile breaky things, I'm going to clumsily step on or fall on these buttons. I understand that. But I don't deliberately seek to push them. I try to make my view understood. From reading some of the replies, I see some understanding, but most of the basics of what they're saying are ultimately foreign to me.

If you're going to teach one side of the story, why not include the other?

And Why should I suffer that children in my care, for whom I will be responsible to God for their education, be taught things that are contrary to my beliefs? To teach Evolution and have a teacher tell my children that the Bible is false, or to have an English teacher force upon them a definition of marriage other than God's is just as reprehensible to me as what you accuse me of wanting.

For many out there, that includes religious experiences. I've tried to point out that my past is less than perfect, and that I sought the Lord's help in prayer, and now, I am no longer burdened by my past sins, and have sucessfully forsaken them through this help. That is as much of a life experience, and to me is more powerful than a teacher sitting in a classroom teaching some dry theory. Based on what I went through, you can't convince me that Jesus was not the Christ, or that His death was merely political. Clearly, that spiritual connection to the Saviour and His atoning Sacrifice has proved to me that it is real.

We don't seek Dominance, only to have the right to raise our children without the state run education trying to contradict or tear down what we are teaching out children. Just as you would not want your young children viewing Hardcore Pornography, there are many that oppose certain teachings based on moral grounds. While I don't want any religion (even my own) dominating the Country, I doubt that the founding fathers wanted the will of the masses superceded by political philosophy.

 

And who is going to decide what those beliefs are?

Atheists would surely be bashed to pieces if some religious criteria was the choice.

 

Rights are one thing, but teaching our children antiquated stories and labeling them as fact in an educational environment is another.

Creationism is an ignorant, unscientific means of explaining why we are here. It was perfectly acceptable thousands of years ago. But this is the year 2005.

We have technology. We have the means to study and gradually understand our universe. We have the means to develop rational hypothesis as to how this all came to be. Did the Big Bang really happen? Not necessarily. Will we ever truly understand how the universe came to be? Almost certainly not. But you know what? I'd rather strive to understand the impossible than create my own explanation out of thin air.

Keep our schools secular. Save the fiction for bible camp. I'm not saying teachers ought to denounce creationism, mind you (even though *I* do). All I'm saying is that such learning needs to be something between children, their parents, and their pastor (or in private school).

As an added note, marriage has been around quite a bit longer than christianity. Please stop hijacking it. The bible only briefly mentions homosexuality, and yet our entire nation is hung up on the subject. Why not do something constructive with your time, such as help the needy? If I recall correctly the bible places a much stronger emphasis on that.

Now then... what was the subject of this thread? Oh, right. Atheist bashing! You know, I attended a private Catholic school from first to twelfth grade. I was openly atheist as were a number of my friends, and yet we were never treated the least bit differently. Of course very few if any of the students literally believed half of what they were taught. Abstinence, for instance, was largely ignored.

 

The public school sysxtem shoud be only the beginning of a child's education. Parents must be fully involved with what their kids are learning, and should seek out other sources to supplement (or replace) the public schools whenever necessary. It's OK to tell a child that you disagree with what Teacher said in biology class today. Remember, by the time kids are learning about evolution, they're old enough to think for themselves anyway and probably already have some pretty strong opinions about the rightness of what Mommy and Daddy say at the dinner table. Trust me on this, this phenomenon happens MUCH earlier than you expect!

If you think that that puts an undue burden on some religious sects, well think back to Star Trek... "The needs of the many outweigh the good of the few."

And you're right, "life experience" DOES include religion for many, many people. Including me. The last thing I am is anti-religion, Gnarff, but I am against the idea that one religion should set standards FOR SECULAR ACTIVITIES that impact people who don't follow that religion. I think freedom OF religion has to include freedom FROM religion for those who want it that way. Again, this applies to SECULAR activities only. Within the privacy of your home and church, knock yourself out!

 

Two words...ermmm...one word, hyphenated...

home-school.

 

Even if the individual was to be accountable to their own openly claimed beliefs it would be a good start.

Possibly, but if this religious criterion was taken seriously, would be bashers would have much more to worry about than bashing Aetheists. Religion, while its history shows some acts of depravity supposedly done in its name yet lacking in its core principles, does paint a picture of human potential that would take truly monumental effort to attain. An example from recent memory would include Mother Theresa. With all the time she put into helping the poor and the needy did she have time to blast the non-believers?

Blah, Blah, Blah. I've heard it before. Why accept some "silly little story" when we Humans should be able to come up with definitave answers for ourselves? What if that "Silly Little Story" really is true?

To me that is just as wasteful as you consider my devotion to my Religious beliefs. That is one of those unbridgeable chasms...

And back then, it was between Man and woman. So also tell the Gay Community to quit hijacking it too...

What about when the local school board wants to start explaining Homosexuality as early as Grade 1? Mormon theology teaches that the age of accountability is 8 years, and by then, children ought to be ablt to decide right from wrong...

But that doesn't say to offend a majority to satisfy a minority...

As long as I still don't have to have my tax dollars funneled into teaching the that passes for Public Education if I choose to pull my children (when the time comes) from the secular classroom.

 

What if Santa really exists? What if grass is purple? What if the world is a gigantic supercomputer and mice are the superior species? Rational thought dictates that none of those scenarios are true. Religion requires one to overcome reason. That isn't something I'm willing to do. Nor am I willing to accept the bible as truth, particularly after reading some of the passages better left forgotten. The ones your pastors don't hold sermons on.

Should I bow down to every religion that threatens fire and brimstone (or its equivalent) on the off chance that it isn't all a lot of fairytale and legend? As I see it I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. So I won't.

I have never in all my years witnessed a teacher denounce one religion or the other. In fact, most if not all give their students a disclaimer before going into evolution and the Big Bang. Whatever their beliefs may be, they still need to learn this and pass a test. That's it. If they still think it's a load of BS, fine. Who cares? You can teach your children what you want. I spent twelve long years studying your bible and Catholicism. At the end of the day I knew none of it was actual fact and I went on believing in my science.

It boils down to this: just as strongly as you know there is a god I know there isn't. You think religion has benefited humanity, I think it's a crutch holding us back. Somehow I doubt the two of us will ever agree on that particular subject. It's a shame that your religion dictates that you must continually nag me over my beliefs or lack thereof. Otherwise we could simply agree to disagree.

[ July 07, 2005, 06:20: Message edited by: SpFiota ]

 

I am somewhat dismayed by this topic in that it reminds me of my stupid days. Previously I was a "Strong" Christian, or so I proclaimed myself to be. In truth, I was self important and ignorant of both science and the higher principles of the very faith I was trying to propagate. I find it a curious quirk that when a person sets out to "Witness" to someone else, they are in all likely hood, trying to show the person they are talking with, their own personal ability to observe "The LAW OF GOD". They quickly point out that everyone is a sinner and that they need to be saved from sin. according to biblical text, "no one can be saved by obeying the law" (You find the reference in Romans . . . This is because if a person breaks the Law of God at the least point, they are guilty of breaking all of the law of God... Hardly seems fair, but it is consistent with biblical theology...) If this is so, then WHY do so many try to "Save" the lost by having them observe the law? "For grace are you saved and this not of yourself: it is the gift of GOD..." Think about this for a moment... What is the first thing out of a would be evangelist face? Your a sinner... you can not match up to the perfect law of God... (Note... Neither can they... and most will say as much) then they go onto the grace of God, (Within protocol I suppose that is logical but then it happens...) They go back to the Law of God and how every one has to keep the law...

Forgive the lengthy preamble, but if it is grace that they received, then why do they default back to being under law? How many ever post on how good it is to be liberated from having to live as one under Law, and to walk in the empowering state of Grace? How many? They will say "I have been saved and you need to obey the law..." but how many say I have been emancipated from the law? How many talk about their "Freedom" (Not obligation to become pressed in the "Christian mold... This what a Christian does, and they certainly do not do this...) to love thier fellow man regardless of whether they agree with their choices or not?

Now to point... If a persons faith has not set them free in that they keep defaulting to the "Law of God" in that they live as one under the law: (For we have been blessed in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus... Eph. Chapter 1 verse 3 ) Then what good is their faith?

I can not claim to be a Christian, but I do know what it is to be liberated from self condemnation and judging others... I only try to concern myself with being a person who brings healing and love and compassion to my fellow human being. To be concerned and show love and acceptance for mankind (Not condemnation for them. If there is "no condemnation for those in Christ" then why is there SO much condeming going on?) is the best I can do, and is my spiritual practice. If my life is not lived in such a way that people want to know more of why I do what I do and believe what I believe, then my spiritual practice is meaningless and I am better to shut up until such time that I am asked. (If a man sees a brother in need and says go and be fed and clothed but does nothing to help him in his need; then the love of God is not in him, and he is a liar... 3rd John Chapter one verse... )

In short, no one who claims Christ as their captain has any buisness bashing anyone... Instead they should follow the example laid out and love thier enemies and being healing to the world; not stupidity...

My my my...

 

The Ancient Greeks might have disagreed.

 

Right. Please note that YOU are in the minority in this case, and at least this member of the majority finds your remarks highly offensive.

A pointless statement, as Mormon theology does not determine what's taught in the public school system.

@Realnotes: Welcome to the BoM, and thank you for such an highly personal post.

 

@Realnotes, welcome to SP. I second Rallymama, thank you for your post.

Now let's get back to bashing Atheists...oops...I mean discussing bashing atheists.

In the small town I lived in we had an atheist family. I don't know if they suffered from mistreatment but I do know people thought them strange. My mother was friendly with them and thought them very moral and nice. So I guess even atheists can be nice people. (I am trying to be a little funny in case anyone doesn't figure that out). The story is true.