Berserker versus Sorcerer

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If GM=Greater Malison, it doesn't stack. Not that it really matters in that situation.

Also, as I found out on Xyx's site (thx for that link, grey), there are ways for the sorc to get unlimited spells without the use of wish (which is random).

 

So, no reactions on the tests I did which show that the scroll of Pf Magic will not help the sorcerers opponent (except possibly if you manage to target the sorcerer with it).

If not, then as far as I can tell this debate is over.

 

On the subject of the Cloak or Mirroring (to protect the Beserker), keep in mind that it does NOT protect against area effect spells that aren't targeted directly at the opponent. A few Horrid Wiltings directed at the ground right next to the Beserker during a Time Stop (just to ensure he can't move), and he's toast. Couple this to Improved Alacrity during the Time Stop... you get the idea.

And Prot from Magic scrolls don't last forever. The Sorcerer, on the other hand, can make himself practically invulnerable long enough for the scrolls to wear out, and then it's Wilting time (or Dragon's Breath, if Beserker isn't protected against fire, which I'll assume he is with the proper equipment).

 

I still think that the Beserker would win, though it would all be a matter of timing. I mean, if both have the best equipment available to them before the fight, then is will be down to milli-seconds.

On the count of three, they both start. Sorcerer with a quick Chain Contingency with Improved Alacrity and Time Stop (or a combination of the sort) and Beserker (if he's mine) with an arrow of biting. Provided the arrow (or other missle weapon that poisions, bites, ect) hits the Sorcerer before time is stopped, I think the Beserker would still be in it.

The Sorcerer is at his weakest right before he starts casting. You take out his ability to cast spells then, he becomes a target for whatever high powered melee weapon is equiped.

On another note, if the Beserker doesn't want to be a target in then begining when the Sorcerer pulls a Time Stop, then he just has to chug a Potion of Invisibilty while wearing the Cloak of Non-Detection. Then it will be the Beserker's turn to play the waiting game.

So, Beserker with the right strategy and items everytime.

 

Couldn't the mage spell glitterdust make invisibility+cloak of non-detection useless?

 

So basically this debate is just about "Magical might of BG2 items vs. Magical might of BG2 Sorcerer"? An interesting subject to be sure. The Berserker's just getting too much fame that isn't rightfully his.

 

Jaguar,
The arrows of biting can't stop a Chain Contingency from unleashing, because it's not a spell, and so can't be interrrupted (provided that the spells have already been stored in it). Therefore, in your scenario, the Beserker would have to kill the Sorcerer before the Contingency activates, and that is instantaneous (if set to, say, enemy sighted). And if the 3rd spell in the contingency happens to be True Sight, then invisibility won't help.

And keep in mind one thing: every time you suggest a strategy using items to help the Beserker, remember the SAME item can be used on the Sorcerer. And unlike the Sorcerer, the Beserker has no practical way of detecting invisibility (no item power bypasses Non-Detection, IIRC).

No matter how I look at it, I just don't see the Beserker winning. If it really comes down to the waiting game, the Sorcerer can wait longer than the Beserker. Say they both have Potions of Invisibility; the Sorcerer ALSO has the spell, allowing him to wait even longer than the Beserker. And once the Beserker is out of potions, the Sorcerer can then unleash any unused spell. And if they're all used... nothing a quick Wish can't fix.

Foradasthar, you're wrong. It's actually "Magical might of BG2 items COMBINED WITH Magical might of BG2 Sorcerer" vs "Magical might of BG2 items". And this hardly seems fair

 

You can't put level 9 spells in a Chain Contingency (CC).

I'd say CC (on sight) with Mirror Image, Mislead and Mass Invisibility (Stoneskin is naturally always on).
Then Time Stop and it's all over.


An interesting alternative idea would be going with Mislead, Pf Energy and Pf Elements in the CC instead. The idea being to try and achieve immunity to everything.

You'd get:
Fire: 127%
Cold: 127%
Electricity: 127%
Acid: 75%
Magic Fire: 127%
Magic Cold: 127%
Magic Damage: 75%

Wearing the Ring of Anti-venom gives immunity to poison (or you could wear Periapt of Proof against Poison).

By casting Pf Magic Weapons, Pf Acid and Pf Magic Energy (in a Spell Trigger perhaps) you get Acid and Magic Damage resistances up to 127% as well as being immune to magic and normal weapons (Tear of Bhaal reward included).

That looks like total immunity to everything as while being invisible. edited: You might want to cast Spell Immunity (SI): Divination and SI: Abjuration to be really safe.

As Foradasthar said the Berserker is irrelevant. I think it's more Sorcerer vs Fighter or Ranger or Monk or Paladin (except Inquisitor).

Instinctively I feel that the Inquisitor might have been a more interesting choice than the Berserker since he has Dispel Magic and True Sight.

The cloak only protects stealth from being revealed. True Sight will still remove the invisibility.

[ August 16, 2004, 19:30: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

The berserker would just run away, wait for his protections to run out, let him cast his wish spell, run away again, get himself a nice pot of tea, wait for a while in a watered down hole. After that he would check if the sorceror is getting tired of looking for the berserker and starts pounding on guards who attack the sorceror for attacking an innocent bystander. This all with a potion of invisibility active of course. And when the sorceror is visible, the berserker uses his protection from magic scroll, and pounds away at the unprotected bastard

Edit: O yeah, I mean using the protection from magic scroll on the SORCEROR!

 

@Thunder
I don't get it, was that intended as a joke?

 

This is just assuming the Sorcerer will attack the Berserker directly. What about the summoned Planetar, Pit Fiend, Comet, Bigbys Fist, etc, etc that get cast during Time Stops as well. And with all the misleads, project image and simulucrum going on as well, who the hell would the Berserker hit. And the Sorcerer just goes invisible at will with his Staff of Magi.

 

@Thunder
Nope, wouldn't work. With things like Project Image, Mislead and Simulacrum, you don't even know where the Sorcerer is. And if the Beserker wastes the scroll on a simulacrum, he's toast. And besides, the Beserker CAN'T stay invisible, because of the Sorcerer's True Sight. And as for the entire "the Beserler runs away" thing, I can't quite see him doing this during a Time Stop...
And remember he'd actually have to TOUCH the Sorcerer for the scroll to work. Not as easy as it sounds. Especially if (as Bard pointed out) there's a Planetar in the way. There's hardly any chance for the Beserker to just "hide in a hole", because the Sorcerer can simply follow him, and while invisible AND with True Sight activated to boot.

 

Ah, but for the sorceror to cast any spells, he has to stand still, enough time for the berserker to run away! He can enter buildings and wait for the sorceror to come in or get out once he is invisible. Hoping that the sorcerer didn't see what building the berserker entered and cast multible skull traps at the entrance, he could just run around all day long. Of course should he be caught in a timestop it looks very very bad for the poor guy.

 

OK, I'm finally back.

In the first round it is absolutely necessary for the Sorcerer to do something in the way of defense. He can't just start casting Time Stop, because even with the Robe of Vecna and the Amulet of Power, it's probably not going to be fast enough to get off before he gets hit. Also, as has been stated, Time Stop can't be placed in a Chain Contingency.

Acknowledging that, Project Image or Mislead CAN be placed in a Chain Contingency, and this almost HAS to be done in the first round for the Sorcerer to win. After casting the CC, it gives the Beserker about a round and a half to deal with the projected image or the mislead image before the Sorcerer can get off a Time Stop. Remember, after casting the CC, the Sorcerer would not be able to cast another spell until the following round, and even by reducing the casting time, Time Stop will still take about half a round to cast. So, the question really is, can the Beserker get through the Project Image or Mislead in less than a round and a half?

 

The Berserker can use the Book of Infinite Spells to cast True Sight. Of course the Sorcerer can use SIivination, so this tactic might not work if you can put SI in the CC.

 

A sorcerer wearing Robe of Vecna or Amulet of Power vs a Berserker wearing the Cloak of Cheese, right?

Berserker attacks. Sorcerer casts Mirror Image. (Casts instantly...'tis the end of the Berserker from here)
Berserker attacks. Sorcerer casts Stone skin. Maybe 2-3 images still left.
Berserker continues attacking. Sorcerer casts Mislead. (This is the killer)
Berserker continues attacking. Sorcerer casts Time Stop at his leisure.
Berserker continues attacking. Sorcerer casts Mordenkainen's Swords as many as he can.

Berserker attacks swords. Sorcerer casts Energy Blades.
Berserker attacks swords. Sorcerer attacks Berserker. Only difference is, sorcerer actually hits the berserker.
Berserker quafs potions and continues attacking swords. Does no damage. Swords continue chopping him up. Sorcerer continues casting stuff NEAR the Berserker, not necessarily at him, like Cloudkill, Fireball at the ground next to him, etc etc.

Maybe a minute later, the Berserker is toast. All his fancy equipment cant do squat.

 

1. Let's once and for all make it perfectly clear that once the Sorcerer casts Time Stop it is game over.

2. I just discovered that using the scroll of Pf Magic on the Sorcerer will not stop him from using magic items and casting spells from scrolls!
In summary:
Scroll of Pf Magic will not protect you from Time Stop, it will not protect you from getting killed by the sorcerer using Energy Blades (the only thing I've tested) and it will not stop the Sorcerer from casting spells from scrolls at you even if you manage to target the Sorcerer with that scroll.
Oh yes, as I pointed out earlier, the Cloak of Mirroring (aka Cloak of Cheese) does not help.

3. Spell Immunity can not be stored in a CC or Spell Trigger.

The option of running away is not viable for the Berserker because he only had at the most 1½ round in which to run before the Time Stop. That's not far enough.

Running is a good idea for the sorcerer however. If you're free to run then I can't see how anyone would have thought the Berserker would stand a chance. Mislead and run leaves the Berserker in a hopeless situation. One True Sight from the Book of Infinite Spells - which btw is not guaranteed to give you True Sight, but ok - is not enough to help since SIivination stops it. For the Sorcerer it's just a matter of getting out of sight and proceeding with the Time Stops.
I assumed that the set-up was a boxing ring kind of fight.

The discussion has to focus on how to kill the sorcerer or cause spell disruption within 1.4 rounds (Time Stop has a casting speed of 4 with Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power). Mirror Image and Mislead also has to be overcome within that time frame.
Mirror Image means immunity to area damage and Mislead means you can't target (or see) the Sorcerer.

[ August 16, 2004, 20:25: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

If you can get in with GWW and use Answerer and Short Sword of Mask, there would be a chance of lowering the Sorcs resistance and draining levels. Does lower resists work through stoneskin like the wizard slayer? Alternatively, you could pick a weapon with stun or poison to disrupt the spell casting.

Cloak of Cheese and Belt of Inertial Barrier will help lower damage from certain spells. Other rings/armours can reduce elemental damage greatly. You don't need to worry about AC against the Sorc, just elemental and magic damage.

 

Succinctly put Earl Grey. This is what I was trying to get at during my last post. I agree that once he gets off a time stop, the sorcerer wins. We have also established that there is no practical way for a sorcerer to get off a time stop in the first round.

NOTE: I don't consider "running away" an option. I envisioned it as a relatively small area in which to fight - kind of like the fighting pits in the Copper Coronet or Ust Natha.

Here's the first thing we have to clear up. Does the sorcerer have a chain contingency ready to go, or is it merely memorized? If we have to wait for him to actually cast Chain Contingency, then it's a whole new ballgame!

Let's assume for the sake of arguement that the Sorcerer would have Chain Contingency ready to go, and that it would set to activate on "Enemy Sighted". Note, this is kind of a cheesy tactic, as you would never set a powerful chain contingency to activate on "enemy sighted" unless you knew what enemy you would be facing - but whatever. It also assumes that the sorcerer has the Chain Contingency ready to fire off. Feel free to argue the point of what would happen if the sorcerer actually had to cast Chain Contingency (which has a looooooong casting time) before activating it.

What spells would he likely place in the contingency? Keep in mind that the goal is to prevent the beserker from being able to hit you for 1.4 rounds at which point you can get a time stop off. I'm thinking mislead, mirror image, and stoneskin. It's possible for the berserker to hack his way though these, but not likely. Project image is another possibility there in exchange for mislead, but I think mislead gives the sorcerer better odds.

If on the other hand, the sorcerer has to cast chain contingency, now it's a bigger problem. Simply because, with the long casting time, the sorcerer cannot possibly cast Chain Contingency and not get killed in the process. His best bet may be to cast something simple - like invisibility - and hope the berserker doesn't have anything handy (like true sight) to dispel it.

 

Stoneskin should always be active. There's little reason for it not to be considering it's very long duration.

Project Image puts a hold on the Sorcerer which is why I dislike that idea. It could still be a good idea, it's just that I have a bad feeling about getting immobilized.

Yes. The spell is meant to be used that way. It's casting CC in the middle of battle that I think is a bit cheesy.

I don't think it's cheesy. I always use "See Enemy" for my CC's.

What you put in the CC depends on what kind of sorcerer you are. If you're a sorcerer concerned with protecting your own life it might be reasonable to consider a CC with Mirror Image, Mislead and one more spell. A very aggressive - typical ToB sorcerer I guess - would perhaps use 3xAbi Dalzim's instead, but that's mostly because we're never that hard pressed in the game.

An interesting option would be to put Mislead in a regular Contingency spell and fill the CC with Power Word: Blind (no save) and two Monster Summoning III (just to hinder movement).