Berserker versus Sorcerer

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No-no-no! That is blatant cheating and will not be allowed.

Yes, I think you've found something there.
- Here is how it goes then:
Sorcerer starts Stoneskinned
Contingency on sight activates Mislead
CC on sight activated Pf Magical Weapons, Mirror Image and Mass Invisibility.
Berserker starts casting True Sight from the Book of Infinite Spells
The Sorcerer (invisibly) moves up to the busy Berserker and uses a Control Circlet on him.

[ August 18, 2004, 10:23: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

Then the you could get the Sorc to empty his spell repetoire before it runs out.

 

Control the Sorc before he stops time. In fance, have hime use all his Wish, Time Stop, and other powerful spells, then put all his buffs on the Beserker, and there you have it, Beserker wins.

Woot!

 

@Earl: I only mentioned the all classes being equal thing because Bard said it first, and I was saying why they can NEVER be equal. Atleast, not a Sorcerer and a Berserker.

I still believe that though. I am yet to come across anyone posting a definitive method as to how a Berserker can defeat a Sorcerer, all factors being equal.

 

How are you going to do that? You can't target an invisible target.

The sorcerer starts invisible thanks to the CC (mislead etc) going off instantly, so the opponent has to both remove the invisibility and become invisible himself in order not to get controlled by the sorcerer.

 

If the berserker wastes his first move trying to cast true sight instead of going berserk, then I hope he has an 18 intelligence--my sorcerer just mazed him (casting time of 3, automatic with gear).

 

Sorry, I'm a noob to the board.
Sorcerer would win hands down in anything like a fair fight due to the sheer number of options he has. My sorcerer has Staff of magi and is always invisible, with stoneskins etc. By the time truesight has been fired from the Beserker's BoIS he is toast.

Why has no one mentioned the boots of etherealness? Surely that buys the time required to get the sorcerer into his timestop routine. (Not that I end up using them cos boots of speed are a must for soloing...)

 

How about something like a Berserker/Cleric? I think a plain Berserker is too weak. A B/C would have MUCH more options at his/her disposal.

 

You'll have to refresh my memory about those boots, but, I'll agree, If the berserker can reveal the sorc, unless the sorc is castinig a spell, he can just re-equip the Staff to stay constantly hidden even under true sight.

 

In answer to my own question the boots of etherealness don't give immunity against magical weapons.
Faraaz, I'm not sure that Beserker/Clerics will fair much better. What tactics do you have in mind?

 

Well, a Beserker/Cleric would have access to True Sight.

But really, here's how to work it.

Vhailor's Helm - Special Abilities (once per day): cast simulacrum
Book of Infinite Spells (True Seeing)
Illithid control circlets

So at the start, cast simulacrum. Then, as soon as the Clone appears, have him cast True Sight with the Book of Infinite Spells. Then, as soon as the Sorcerer appears, have the real Beserker use a Illithid control circlet.

Voila, Sorcerer on a platter.

 

No, no, no, no, no.

Casting similacrum consumes all of round one for the berserker. Likewise, casting true sight uses the similacrum's round. The sorcerer can't be controlled until round two.

Meanwhile...

The sorcerer sees the berserker cast the similacrum (ending his round) and either a) death spells it before the true sight is cast and then re-equips the staff to become invisible again or b) walks over to the berserker with a control circlet of his own once he sees the harmless orange/lightning divination glow of the true sight spell.

In case a, we're back where we were 25 posts ago, while in case b, the sorcerer wins. Again.

It takes the berserker one round to reveal the sorcer and a second round to hurt him. Meanwhile, the sorcerer can use that interval to become invisible again or take other appropriate action. The berserker just needs too many things to happen simultaneously if he is to make the sorcerer vulnerable.

(As an aside, does anyone know if a control circlet works through anything? Even mind blank from the greenstone amulet?)

 

Remember for the Sorcerer both Contingency and Chain Contingency triggers at the start of the first round.
With Mislead from the Contingency you could put Mirror Image, Pf Magic Weapons and True Sight in the CC.
This leaves the sorcerer invisible but the Mislead decoy is now visible. It might not be a big deal though, since the sorcerers opponent has to cast True Sight anyway, so a Mass Invisibility from the sorcerer would be wasted.

With this setup the Simulacrum cast by the sorcerers opponent gets dispelled at the start of the second round.

 

@Eric Xanthus
Maze is subject to magic resistance, so it may not work.

Let's get something clear: Death Spell cannot be cast until round two if the Sorcerer's CC is triggered. The Control Circlet cannot be used until round two. Items, potions, and special abilities are considered spells for timing purposes. That's why you can't drink your healing potions fast to quickly heal yourself.

Let's get another thing clear: the Sorcerer is NOT GUARANTEED to win. The rules of the PvP match play a large part in this. Is this some chance encounter with a solo Berserker and solo Sorcerer meeting each other? Do they know who their next opponent will be? Or is this more of a boxing match, where the opponents can guess what tactics will be used and begin simultaneously?

The Sorcerer is assumed to have a Chain Contingency and Stoneskin active. Then why can't the Berserker have a Simulacrum clone and True Sight running when the match begins? If anybody thinks this is unreasonable, the Berserker sleeps after every turn .

An aside: why is the old argument "Berserker vs. Sorcerer"? For almost every tactic so far the Berserker can be replaced by a Fighter and the Sorcerer by a Bard. This argument does not prove the superiority of arcane magic in BG2. Nor does it prove that notion for PvP. If anything, the conclusion is that they depend on their items for their power.

 

Berserker is chosen as they are a better fighter, with the Berserker Rage. Sorcerer is chosen as they are the ultimate spell-caster. Yes, a mage can have the same spells but is limited in that he has to memorize them in advance. The sorc has versatility on his side.

 

I assumed that when the Simulacrum appears, he will be able to cast Truesight instantly, and the real Beserker could follow up with a control circuit right away, no later then the begining of round two.

Or maybe a control circuit on the Mislead decoy right away and use him against the Sorcerer.

 

Because Contingency and CC are spells cast as... contingencies. They can last forever. In a more limited way this applies to Stoneskin with it's 9 hour duration. This is why we assume the sorcerer always starts fights with Stoneskin.

True Sight lasts ten rounds and Simulacrum lasts 1 round/level which is clearly too short to always keep active.

If you insist that it is reasonable for the Berserker to have True Sight and Simulacrum active then you'd have to allow the sorcerer to pre-buff with spells like Pf Elements, Pf Energy, Pf Magic Energy, Pf Acid, Pf Magic Weapons, Mislead, SI: Divination, SI: Abjuration, Spell Shield, Globe of Invulnerability, Mirror Image, Blur, Improved Haste, Summon Planetar, Animate Dead, Mordenkainen's Sword etc.

It's called a "control circle".
The mislead decoy is just a decoy, it can't cast spells or use items so I don't think you gain anything by controlling it.

He won't. You can't use two items in the same round.

I think it does prove the superiority of arcane magic quite clearly.
The only thing keeping the "Berserker" - which I agree could be replaced with any kind of warrior, except the Inquisitor - in the contest is the use of items which casts magic spells. If it was a naked sorcerer up against a naked berserker the outcome would not be questioned by anyone.

[ August 19, 2004, 11:04: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

Some notes:

1) The Protection from Magic Scroll is supposed to be cast *on* the Sorcerer, not the Berserker. The moment this happens, game over for Sorcerer.
Ditto Control Circlet.

2) As previously said, the Sorcerer has no chance against the Berserker without his images. The Ring/s of the Ram see to that. One hit with the Ring, and the Berskerer's chasing after the Sorcerer with Smites, Greater Whirlwinds, etc. If the battlefield is big enough, the battle is practically over since it takes time for you to get swept from once place to another.
Summing that up, the Sorcerer will die if he elects to fight the Berserker personally/directly.

3) When images come to play, it's boils down to how good the players are and what tactics they are going to use against each other. It also boils down to who makes the first mistake.

If it ends up as a counter-battle (ie, Sorcerer does this, Berserker does that, Sorcerer counter with this, etc) then the element of surprise is lost and this just happens to be one of the Berserker's greatest strengths against the Sorcerer. If the Berserker uses the Helm of Vhailor to cast Simulacrum and lure the Sorcerer into the open, and someone counters with placing a True Sight in the Contingency then your Sorcerer is only alive because you know what the Berserker is going to do next. Same if he casts the Protection from Magic scroll on himself, and waits for the Sorcerer to cast Reflected Image, then uses his items to try to cause the Image to miscast the spell. (Wand of Wonders, Necklace of Missiles, Ring of the Ram, etc.) Once the real Sorcerer is caught he's as good as the dead, unless the Berserker decides to be merciful enough (or if he hasn't used his Contingencies). The Berserker's arsenal sees to that.

The reason I think the Berserkers have a higher chance of winning is that without any foreknowledge at all, the Sorcerer's going to have a hard time defending himself against every trick on the Book the Berserker can use. While the Berserker has every option he has on the ready the Sorcerer has to plan very carefully, and his resourcers are quite limited thanks to class restrictions and the fact that he has a limit at casting spells. Wish is only an option if you have one of your images cast it. At any one time he miscasts something he's as good as dead, so he has all the right to plan wisely.

The Sorcerer can only win period if he manages to get a Timestop off - but how he proposes to do this is another thing entirely since the Berserker will try to use every means he has to prevent this.
Other than this it is all luck, chance and skill.

4) Wand of Wonders can be abused by both sides.

 

Earl Grey has summed up my points perfectly, as I took too long in responding here. If the contest is known in advance and pre-buffs are allowed, there is absolutely no way for the berserker to ever inflict damage on the sorcerer. If the encounter is completely random, the berserker does not have time to marshall all the forces he needs to pierce the contingencies of the sorcerer. And if there is a tightly controlled battle in which the berserker gets to prepare a specific set of powers and the sorcerer is limited in how he can prepare, then this challenge becomes completely irrelevant. Any middle ground between random encounter and full-on gladiator style battle fails to demonstrate anything about the classes in themselves, other than "an unprepared sorcerer may in fact lose to a well prepared berserker." Not much of a stretch, there.

 

Agreed. I think the only conclusion is that a Sorcerer has about 581 different means of getting rid of a Berserker, while a Berserker must find THE loophole that will allow him to weaken the Sorcerer's defenses enough to maybe damage him.

@Scythesong: you fail to explain how the Berserker can do all this when he can't see his target...