Berserker versus Sorcerer

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@Eric Xanthus
You have summed up the situation admirably. The problem is that, in both "prepared" and "unprepared" cases, the Sorcerer will win. The entire "if the Sorcerer makes a mistake..." thread is completely irrelevant, since the same can be said for the Beserker (and besides, if he DOESN'T make a mistake...).

So, are we left with the conlusion that the Sorcerer will always win?

I think that other warrior classes have a much better chance than the Beserker. The only advantage the Beserker has is immunity to Imprisonment/Maze, and that only applies if he rages.

Come to think of it, the Beserker cannot do anything but Rage in his first round (I'm assuming the "prepared" scenario). If he doesn't, Imprisonment gets rid of him once and for all. No saves, no magic resistance, and no Cloak of Cheese can prevent this.

Earl Grey is right. Talk about "superiority of arcane magic"... this is ridiculous.

I think the only warrior with even minimal chance of winning in this scenario is the Inquisitor, and that's only if he can kill the Sorcerer before Spell Immunity against Dispel Magic kicks in.

 

Contingency lasts 1 day/level. Stoneskin lasts for 12 hours. The duration of CC is listed as 'Special'.

Exactly, hence the sarcasm ( ). IMHO it's reasonable for a Sorcerer to have Contingency, CC, Spell Trigger, Spell Sequencer, and Stoneskin on all the time. At least that's how I play. What the tournament allow and what is known of the opponent will determine the outcome; that was my point.

I was thinking along the lines of mage/priest spells. If your definition of arcane magic includes magical items, then I agree with you.

In all cases, the Sorcerer is not guaranteed to win. If the challenge is irrelevant, so be it. This thread was never meant to prove the superiority of Sorcerer over Berserker or that the Sorcerer will always win. Those are conclusions of some, not all.

 

My original thesis was that as soon as Time Stop was launched it was all over for the Berseker, but I don't think in reality it would be that easy.

There are so many options available equipment-wise for the Berserker to negate spell effects and damage, plus his huge hit point, that he should last a few turns.

There are many potions that can damage the Sorc even while hidden. The job of the Berserker won't be to kill the Sorc in one-hit straight away, but to stay alive long enough to nip away at the Sorcs spell repertoire.

A couple of Time Stops, a few Abi-Dalzims, a couple of Summons, a few death spells, a few Buffs, etc, etc. These will all eat away at the Sorcs total spell count, which although huge, isn't infinite.

 

That's not true.
As I pointed out earlier having that scroll cast on you does not prevent you from using items, scrolls, potions etc!
So, the sorcerer could for example have scrolls of Time Stop and use them.

Again, not true.
There are other spells except Mirror Image and Project Image (which are the only images I can come up with now). He can use any form of invisibility.
Pf Magic Weapons should protect the sorcerer from the berserkers weapons even if he uses Smite or Whirlwinds.
Ring of the Ram ought to do damage (if you can see the sorcerer), but that won't kill the Sorcerer.

 

What kind of tricks does the Berz have agains just half deasent 4 year old Sorc? None? Yep

 

@Earl: B/C's get Dispel Magic...at higher casting levels...like maybe a 9/XX spread, at max level, they can get pretty good with the dispelling. Also, clerics can reach lvl 40 (I think), whereas a sorcerer will only be level 34...hence, Dispel Magic is a powerful tool in a Berserker/Cleric's hands. Also, he gets Miscast Magic.

AND a B/C can wear the Amulet of Power...anything which can help the B/C incapacitate the Sorcerer faster is worthwhile.

Berserker/Clerics get True Sight, they get ANIMATE DEAD!! Skeleton Knights are immune to magic! Of course, a Death Spell would get rid of them...but that's one round a Sorc isnt casting Time Stop.

They can also do nifty spells like Holy Glyph of Warding...they don't have to SEE the Sorcerer to do that...

 

The Sorcerer will not be able to defend himself against every tactic the Berserker can use. Albeit if the Sorcerer does have time to prepare, then Berserker is indeed at a disadvantage.

I don't see how this is so. From where I'm sitting, given the situation you mentioned the roles are in complete reverse.

I don't seem to be getting to you here. Does the Berserker have to sleep before every battle? Does he have to prepare before every fight he goes up against?
At the beginning of the battle the Berserker has every option ready at his disposal. The Sorcerer has to prepare, and the wrong type of preparation can end the battle prematurely.
There's also the part of casting the wrong type of spell, since the very act of casting one makes the Sorcerer an open target for the Berserker.

That single loophole can mean life or death for the Sorcerer. As it just so happens, the only clear way the Sorcerer can kill the Berserker is if he manages to chuck off a Timestop. Anything method he uses to try to kill the Berserker afterwards is just a variation of the same tactic.

He waits, of course. Neither will the Sorcerer accomplish any killing by staying invisible.

Not bloody likely. The Berserker is almost never "unprepared".

If the Sorcerer makes a mistake, he has just lost a casting round, risked the cooldown-to-casting round, and risked being torn to shreds by the Berserker. If the Bersker makes a mistake, you pause the game, and reclick the mouse.

The Wizard Slayer has a better chance than the Inquisitor.

That's only part of his job - the other is to keep a good ear out for Timestop, or look for the proverbial "loophole" in the Sorcerer's defense.

A good Berserker will be very alert in battle and will take note of what the Sorcerer is casting. When the Sorcerer is casting his "voice" can be heard, so the Berserker has a small indication of what the Sorcerer is up two.

Albeit this time he won't have his protections to save him from the Berserk's blows.
Some spells will also not work even if you cast them from scrolls when within the Sphere.
Besides isn't this edging on the cheating line? The description on the scroll says no spells can be cast, whether within or towards the person inside the ball, and its obvious enough that the only reason why the Sorcerer can use scrolls within the ball is because of a programming bug, obvious enough when you try to use a scroll in Mustard Jelly form.

By image spells I meant the ones that try to duplicate the user, thus confusing the Berserker and forcing him, if he is not careful enough, to make the greatest mistake he can do - use his limited resources on an image.

At which point, the Berserker will have to wait. The Sorcerer can choose to buff himself silly but if tries to cast an offensive spell that "sounds" dangerous, the Berserker acts. The Berserker could also, at this time, revert to tactics to trick the Sorcerer and flush him out.

And I suppose your Sorcerer was expecting my Berserker to cast Sunray during that past Timestop, aye? Or that while your Sorcerer was busy casting Timestop in the middle of every arcane protection spell in existence, the Silver Sword was eating away at him with instant death at -2 save? Or that Short Sword of Mask with its undefendable entangle ability was the one being used to hit your Sorcerer? Or that one hit and a failed save with the Celestial Fury's special attack, and its game over for Sorcerer?

 

@Scythesong

"The Wizard Slayer has a better chance than the Inquisitor"
Not really. His spell resistance he can be removed with a Spell Trigger (3 Lower Resistance). And since he can't use magic items, not even potions, he will have a hard time going invisible. I think this leaves him way too open for arcane attacks. Besides, for any of his anti-spellcaster abilities to work, he'd have to hit the Sorcerer in the first place.

"The Sorcerer can choose to buff himself silly but if tries to cast an offensive spell that "sounds" dangerous, the Berserker acts."
You can't rely on sound - there are about 3 or 4 "sounds" used for all spells in the game. And with both the Amulet of Power and Robe of Vecna, the casting time is so short even for full-round spells that you wouldn't really be able to prepare for an incoming spell.

"The Berserker is almost never "unprepared"."
He's never really prepared either...

 

First post, so hello to everybody

Casting Time Stop does not remove your invisibility, so at the beginning of the battle the berserker has to stop an invisible sorcerer from casting it in 0,4 rounds.
Even with the amulet, a berserker/cleric can cast dispel in 0,5 rounds and true sight in 0,7 rounds - too late.
A time stop, improved alacrity, shapechange, morph into mindflayer combo leaves the sorcerer enough time to score five hits, each draining 5 INT - magic resistance and number of HP will not play a role.

A sorcerer does not always win, but definitely has better chances.

[ August 27, 2004, 17:32: Message edited by: Chimera ]

 

Just to clarify a point or two:

The prepared-unprepared argument was directed against Drumheller, who spoke of a kind of match play where each side has time to prepare for the coming battle. The berserker will have time to establish several countermeasures mentioned in this thread that he would not normally have time to do after the fight started, while the sorcerer can make himself truly invincible with several SIs and buffs. The unprepared idea was something like "a sorcerer, a berserker, and an umpire walk into a bar..." (forgive the joke). In that case, the berserker does not have things like simulacrum and true sight up and ready, while the sorcerer still has some of his very best defenses: namely, stoneskin, contingency, and chain contingency. Their enormous durations (relatively speaking) make it more than reasonable to have them active all the time--it is in fact unreasonable not to. Conversely, a berserker can't go around all day with a simulacrum and true sight, thanks to their duration.

The reason this came up is that, after looking at several strategies for the berserker, an unhelpful trend began in the thread--people began to assume preparations for the berserker without giving the same to the sorcerer. Arguments were beginning to assume that the berserker got the drop on the sorcerer in someway. However, it should be fairly obvious that in such an ambush setting, ambushing X should defeat ambushed Y every time. That is why I find such a comparison unhelpful. To effectively compare the classes in themselves, equal foreknowledge and preparation must be assumed. If this spawns a thread about an assassin taking out a sorcerer unprepared, so be it. But we are looking at a different matchup here.

 

Whoa...4 pages!! I'd prepared a whole list of stuff the B/C could do to smack the Sorcerer around, but the boards ate my post up! Anti-flooding protection...

Anyway...I see that the Sorcerer is still ruling supreme. Heh. They're awesome.

Again, the point for this post. I noticed here, that everyone is taking a very antagonistic look towards the Sorcerer. This won't do! Just because he is the more powerful of the two, doesn't give the Berserker any special consideration to buff himself, or prepare himself, without the Sorcerer doing the same.

Off the top of my head, I could name atleast 5 buffs which the Sorcerer can put on himself, before any fight, which I put on him, whilst I play him, which will render him immune to EVERYTHING the game can throw at him..(maybe more than 5 spells for THAT )...but the point to this rambling, is this.

No buffing for ther Berserker if no buffing for the Sorcerer!!

Also...this point just demonstrates what I've been saying all this time. Sorcerer eats the Berserker for breakfast, ya'll!!

 

@Ziad: I know this is off-topic slightly, but ...

The wizard slayer only has to hit the Sorc, which will be fairly easy when seen - which the Sorc will be when casting spells, for the wiz slayers % spell failure ability to affect the Sorc. He only need a 2-3 to start making life very difficult for the Sorc. This effect works through stoneskins, as I recall, so he is far more of a danger than people give him credit for. Earl Grey could probably clarify whether this is true, as he has soloed one before.

 

I'm pretty sure the 10% failure rate works all the time, even if you weapon cannot "hit" the sorcerer. So in your example, if you hit a stoneskinned mage with an arrow, yep, he has a 10% chance of spell failure. What I'm not sure of is if, for example, the wizard casts protection from normal missiles, and you fire an arrow at him, if the 10% chance counts.

 

It doesn't really matter - as I recall, the wizardslayer have no way to dispell the mislead, meaning he can't EVER see the sorc. (I won't go into more detail on that one - this is a sorc vs zerk topic after all.)


Scythesong Immortal (and some others):

About preparing: In a regular battle, one I would concider more or less "unprepared", the berserker's "preparation" consists off equipping the Waihlor's helm, etc., while the standard sorc "prepares" by by having stoneskin and contiegencys(sp?) active. For a prepared battle, the berserker might quaff a few potions, summon some fodder (off items)(, and casting true sight, if needed) before, for exaple, declaring to Fikraag that you are going to kill him. The sorcs preparation in such a case includes casting dozens of defensive spells.

Invisibility: If a berzerker has detection means active, the sorc can just re-equip the staff of the magi to keep invisible. Granted, he won't get any spells off, but true sight don't last forever. If the berserker doesn't have any detection active, the sorc casts mislead (casting time= shortest you can have, du to robe+amulet) to stay hidden while casting spells. It should be noted that the mislead is invisible due to the staff.


Sorry for the long time of the edit - I got a call in the middle of it.

[ August 20, 2004, 18:17: Message edited by: Bluerose ]

 

Well...as far as being technically correct is concerned...in response to Aldeth, NO, it would NOT work then, because the arrow has to actually HIT the Sorcerer for the spell failure to apply. Since the Stoneskin absorbs the damage, in a way, it can be said that the arrow still hits the Sorcerer.

But in the real world, Protection from Normal Missiles can be imagined to function in a way, that the arrows simply bounce off the Sorcerer. Or something.

The point is, the game does not allow such hits to factor into the spell failure chances.

 

Wizard slayer casting failure ability does not work with ranged weapons. It punches through stoneskin (even when there is no damage) though.
And a mage can cast a lot of spells without becoming visible

 

Whoa! A very cool debate!

One thing to consider is that it is crucial who makes the first move. Because when you see an opponent make his move you can then counter that in some way and also gain advantage possibly.

And the other is the battlefield that they are in. Is this a small arena or can you hide behind some wall or even run away?

One other thing is that Sorc should already be immune to normal weapons from a hell test. This is not an option - this bonus is unfair IMO.

One thing to consider is that a berserker with a Cloak of Non-Detection + Potion of Invisibility cannot be seen with True Sight. The only option for a sorc that I can see is a Planetar who can see through invisible.

That CC combo of Mislead + Mass invisibilty is really very nasty for a berserker. And if Staff of The Magi is allowed for a sorc he can reequip it as soon as he is seen with the spell and he is gone again. BUT - as soon as he starts casting Time Stop he is visible for 0.4 rounds, right?

So what can a berserker do in that time? GWW with something - probably ranged not to waste time. There is a cool way to get past PFMW and still cause spell disruption - since no normal weapons do elemental damage - use Firetooth crossbow and equip it with normal bolts. They go through PFMW and when they hit they cause fire damage as a result of a Firetooth's ability.

 

But will Firetooth get past the immune to normal weapons?

 

Casting Time Stop will not make the sorcerer visible.

 

Very enlightening Chimera and Leslie.
Pardon me whilst my head explodes.