Best AC and how?

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Yes, but doesn't that improve Bladesinger? It's one of the few upgrades that doesn't require extra items - just money. IIRC, all you need is the initial armor and 40,000 gp and you get the upgrade. However, I thought the upgraded armor was still referred to as Bladesinger - evidently not based on your comment.

Tzu Zan's bracers is a brilliant suggestion actually - that's a bonus one point that I had not considered.

 

Not a problem - the Improved Bladesinger is actually called the Aslyferund Elven Chain +5. This is most likely the armor's "true name" being brought out, just like for the Hammer of Thunderbolts/Crom Faeyr.

EDIT:By the way, are the Boots of Phasing actually in-game? I do faintly recall something akin to it, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

 

Aslyferund Elven Chain actually also requires a Protection from Normal Weapons scroll, besides the 40,000 gp. For the record, it sets base AC to 0.

Besides Sentinel and Darksteel, the Shield of the Order (from Yaga-Shura) also has an AC of -5.

My Swashbuckler has an AC of -19 normally. This is achieved with the following equipment:

• Grandmasters Armor (AC 1)
• Amulet of the Master Harper (AC +3)
• Ring of Gaxx (AC +2)
• Ring of Earth Control (AC +1)
• Montolio's Cloak (AC +1)

Yes, this could easily be improved upon (I actually didn't know she could wear the White Dragon Scale armor and retain her thieving abilities), but this is what I got her on a normal run through the game. She gets hit plenty, though, so I guess it's warranted to lower the AC even further.

/edit
Apart from the Amulet of the Master Harper you seem to have forgotten in the previous musings, there is also a Ring of Protection +3 (from the Deck of Many Things). I don't have the EoU mod installed, so I never use that one, but you could use it.

Lowest THAC0 I found was -8 (Demogorgon, Human Abazigal, Melissan). Don't know if this is including their weapon's THAC0 bonusses. I'm guessing it doesn't, which would make it -13 for Abazigal and Melissan.

[ January 20, 2006, 00:37: Message edited by: henkie ]

 

I've found that you can have max'd out AC and you won't be missed very often while playing in ToB. When I finally made the Big Metal Unit, (AC-25), with my fighter, I was getting clobbered in all the battles that were worth naming, like going after the enclaves. The Dragons don't miss, Period. You need more than just base AC to get through those battles.


I think the post is just about seeing how far you can get AC wise in the vanila game, despite uselessness. IE: Bard with defensive spin and Big MEtal Unit, I believe the AC bonuses stack, so you'd be at -35, but has anyone ever actually gotten an AC more than -25? No matter what Items I use when I have that giant suit it never changes, (though I admit it could easily be a downside to the armor that you can't change the AC).

 

Ummm. Serious flaw here in a couple of these.

Without a mod. you cannot wear Items of Protection and magical armor. It is a mod that changes that. So you can't consider anything that says Armor of Hart(same AC as that stupid cursed plate by the way. -2)and Ring of Protection or something like that unless you want to download those mods that let you wear both.

Secondly. 20 Dex is not the +5 bonus. 21 Dex is.

Somebody has already mentioned the Master Harper amulet.

Ring of Gaxx does stack it's AC bonus. I've been using that little fact on my Mages ever since my first time playing through and I managed to beat him because let's face it. They need every little advantage to compensate for the low hitpoints that they can get when you don't know what's coming.

Your best bet though really is going to be the Swashbuckler simply because of the ac bonus and the ability to wear any item can combine Several of the only certain classes/kits that give AC and other bonuses. Such as monks have the only pair of gauntlets that give AC.

Also there are boots of Phasing in the Shade Lords Dungeon if you do certain things just right if I recall But those give you a whole other issue to worry about.

However without the UAI you might consider looking at Monks. While the restriction says they can't wear armor they can manage to slip into certain things. They actually get an ac bonus every other level. They can wear some of those certain class/kit only items out of ToB. More than any other without UAI. And then you can stack on various items in every other slot to lower their AC further. I don't even recall if they're AC every other level had a low point. I'd have to play another one to tell you. But if it keeps going they've got some of the best.

 

On the other hand, if you want your swash to be able to use his thieving abilities and your blade to cast spells (which you would, otherwise you'd play a fighter or something)the blade wins after he buffs up. By a long shot.

 

Buffed up. Micro managed. Whatever. the blade doesn't really win by all that much at all. Even with his defensive spin. Specially considering that anything that hits through your defensive spin is going to pretty close to obliterate your Blade if not do it outright and you get to spend the rest of the time going "Oh God! Oh God! get out of that damned Defensive spin so you can move damnit!"

In fact. Several of the buff's don't even do you any good after a certain point just with the equipment that can be worn by a Blade normally. All the buffs that work on the blade at that point work just as well for the Swashbuckler except maybe stone skin. And stone skin while a great defense isn't AC so don't have to worry about it for the discussion.

Without the buffs the Swashbuckler can wear his kick butt thieving armor and still have a greatly improved AC and then you include the items. And that means no loss of Thieving skills. From the sounds of it he can equal the bonus of Defensive spin without it as a matter of fact. AT least if I read the numbers right.

And none of this is counting that I do believe there is armor that a swashbuckler can wear without losing their thieving skills that is below 0ac. one of the dragon scale armors if I recall. While the blade has very limited armor choices while still being able to cast their spells.

 

Please, take your Swashbuckler versus Blade talk elsewhere... you're getting quite ! Start a new thread if you wish to debate.

In regards to the lowest AC, I just made a level 23 Blade (16/20/16/15/14/10/16) with the aforementioned items using Shadowkeeper (although my ToB's not working properly now so I can't take UAI and its goodies into account) and it seems the AC is jammed at -24 (-20 + Defensive Spin, which *should* give me -30 rather than -24). I tried unequipping some AC-giving items, and it still locked at -24. So I believe the highest maximum you can attain is -24, with the sole exception of the totally awesome BMU which grants -25 (although I heard somewhere that the Slayer form also locks at -25).

 

I was not off topic. if you read my post I was still talking about their armor. Since the topic is about the best AC possible I pointed out reasons why the blade is not better than the swashbuckler.

 

@ Starwalker - I was mostly referring to Drew's post, but after re-reading them, I suppose they're somewhat topical. Guess it's my interpretation - apologies and warm cookies.

However, you do make a point about the buffs, but you should take in consideration that Felinoid previously said that Swashbucklers get an AC point

Therefore, the Blade does have a *small* advantage over the Swashbuckler in terms of AC, but only for twenty four seconds, and at a price of no movement - although he gets it a lot earlier than his thief companion.

Nonetheless, we're talking pure AC here, so duration or not, it doesn't matter.

 

Actually there is no movement penalty if your blade is wearing a ring or potion of free action. Your blade can also cast blur for another 3 points. That gives the blade a 4 point lead if there weren't an AC cap. Not to mention that he's got an obnoxious number of uses of defensive spin at high levels. (This is all moot, of course, since most folks are just gonna cast PFMW and call it a day.)

 

I took it into account in the part where I said they even make up for the Blades Defensive spin if I read the numbers in previous posts correctly.

And Blur doesn't work only for the blade. There are items and other castings that can put it on the swashbuckler if I do recall.

 

I can't believe there's an item I didn't know about, but unless it's the item you get for completing Jaheira's romance, I'm drawing a complete blank on what this item is. I have done the Jaheira romance before, but I don't remember the amulet giving a +3 bonus to AC. I seem to remember it having a very high resistance to electricty, and some AC bonus, but I never thought it was as high as +3.

 

You can get the Amulet of Master Harper from Imix, in Yaga-Shura's lair. You know, the same guy that drops the Ravager.

As far as the AC question is concerned, I could equip my Swashbuckler such that she should have an AC of -29. probably could be even lower with the BMU, but I don't know what the BMU sets your AC to. But since it seems to cap out at -24, I guess that -24 is the minimum AC you can achieve, whether you get a Blade or a Swashbuckler.

 

Dual Class? Blade -> cleric? You won't get UAI, but you do still gain the ability to use plate, and with draw upon holy might your dex increases by a bit, increasing your AC further. I believe you can use the same items that were listed above to gain the -33-36 AC, and just add 4-6 dex to increase the ac by another 2-3.


(and although the max is 24, or 25 with BMU, this is still all just theory getting max'd out).

 

too bad you cant dual class bard and cleric in this game sigh. my monk had a -25 ac without using yamato and a few other items so I think a monk is up there though I doubt that it is #1 in the ac department.

Edit: Dont foget with swashbucklers that with UAI they can use scrolls of any spells that a blade can cast so spells in this discussion are compatible with both. So lets add tensers and other goodies on there because they add to ac dont they?

 

There seems to be a single flaw with your evil, vile live masterplan of demonology, Omnigodly - Bards cannot dual-class.

Edit: Drat... Yoshimo's blood-pumping organ beat me to it!

@Yoshimo's Heart - Have you taken in consideration that when using a Scroll, you cast that spell as the level required to cast it, as opposed to casting it as your *current* level with a Bard (Blade specifically, in this case)? I'm not sure if there's such a progress-per-level buff spell, but it may play an interesting role in the battle for AC.

 

While this would be nice to say it is not a reality since we've been keeping this to the core game and not mods. Let me explain further.

This list looks great. Sounds great. Horibly flawed. Specially since he says going by Vanilla ToB.

The armor and any of the Items of Protection he has listed here don't stack. This loses you several points in AC. Let's break this down more realistically why don't we hmmm?

The Armor is a great start. -2 AC. Shurrupak's plate. Gives you a bonus dot of dexterity. As blade you can wear it. But if we consider a functional character. It's no good. So it works but it doesn't.

With or without UAI (which in some ways is the truer test) let's go with something realistic. The chainmail for multi-class mages and bards everywhere. Aslyferund Elven Chain +5. That's 0 Ac.

The Amulet. Has to go. Can't use it with the Armor. But we do have the Master Harper's pin that luckily makes up for this. +3 bonus.

Two pieces and Dex not counted we're at -3 AC now.

Next Item. A biggy here. Weapons.
Yamoto. Great weapon. +1 AC. That brings our tally down to -4 without considering Dexterity yet.

The obvious defense item. The shield. DarkSteel or Sentinal. Good sounding Choices. Look -9 AC.

Jumping around a bit as I am Rings are next. Ring of Gax is fine. Brings our total down to -11. Can't do ring of protection though. So we lose points here and only get to -12 through several rings i might add.

Cloak. Can't wear the nifty upgraded one so we will stick to the few that only give a 1 point bonus. -13. For either I'd be prone to say Montfolio's with UAI just for the dual wielding bonus but actually dual wielding hurts us for this one thing.

Helmet? So many choices. All -1. Let's put that at -14.

The Gloves. Wonderful Tzu-Tzan offers up his contribution to give us. -15.

Boots. Boots of Phasing. Wonderful things. -2 bonus. So we're at -17.

This finds us at the end of our Equipment. -17 for the Blade. The Swashbuckler can squeeze out a -19 if you don't mind slipping out of your armor to pick locks. Doesn't bother me any.

Dexterity. Unless you thuroughly cheat. your looking at -4 to -5. I can get you -5 without the armor. Asking how? Let me explain. 18 dex base. 1 for the the tome moves us up to 19. 1 for Lum's machine this is 20. Not enough you say? Well I'm an evil Bastard and I took the evil path with Wrath. Suddenly I have 21. I believe this works for both the Swashbuckler and the bard. If not then we've got another bonus to the Swashbuckler. And yes I power gamed my way through certain stat losses.

Either way we've got a -22 for the Blade and a -24 for the Swashbuckler.

Time for best bonuses from their class kits. Blade gets a -10 at best from their defensive spin. This is level based but you max it out early on.

Swashbuckler we have figured out gets a maximum of a permanent -9 AC bonus.

Final Tallies shall we?

Blade hits a grand total of -32. Ouch. those various items that screw him up or would have made him a pure fighter hurt him. damn. Such is the sacrifice for actually playing a bard and using spells. Afterall. Put on that armor and you might as well just use offensive spin.

Grand Total for Swashbuckler gets us down to a -33 total in bonuses.

But Wait! you say? I Don't like the platemail since the dex bonus doesn't matter anymore and I can't steal in combat? We've already had it pointed out that the Swashbuckler can wear White Dragon Scale Armor, thanks to Aldeth, and still steal to his hearts content. Same AC no +1 dex. but you still have 21 to fall back on. No change in AC total. And it's all permanent AC. No running out of any of it at a critical moment. Double Win for the Swashbuckler I say. I don't take buffs into account because any buff the bard can do you can put on the swashbuckler.


oh My. Look what I've done. I've had both sides keep their powers. Get the best AC possible. Though it all hinges on UAI. And the Swashbuckler came out on top.

Anybody see any holes in my stuff for the Vanilla game? Let me know. I'll fix things. Though without UAI. From the sounds of it. The Monk does indeed rule all in lowest possible AC from an above post.

[ January 21, 2006, 02:08: Message edited by: starwalker ]

 

As far as I know the White Dragon armor is wearable by ALL leather-only wearers with NO penalties whatsoever (I do think it restricts casting as usual, though - can anyone confirm this?) save for a few exceptions. It's an excellent end-game armor for any adventurer (Given the AC is extremely low as well, even lower than Firkraag's and Abazigal's scales as *platemail* ! That dragon was definitely on steroids...), although it looks extremely ugly on Thief paperdolls (because they have no Chainmail animations, and therefore use the No Armor look). The only people restricted from wearing it as far as I know are mages, monks, shapeshifters, avengers and Kensais.

Therefore, both the Blade and the Swashbuckler could wear it (or the plate, for that matter. We're not speaking of armor practicalness here, just the lowest AC possible, thereby not ruling out that option).

 

yes. It cancles out spell casting. There are only a few armors that are flagged for like Bards and multi-class mages to wear and still be able to cast spells. They are Elven Chainmail(normal and enchanted), the Melodic Chain +3(this might be bard only. been a while.), The Bladesingers Chainmail +4 and it's upgraded form of Aslyferund Elven Chain +5.

These are the only armors that you can cast spells in besides mages robes which we all know, of course.

Everybody is going to want their bard to still cast spells. It's part of the blades special strength to cast spells in defensive spin. Can't do that if your armor won't let you.

Everybody wants their thief to steal without moving things around as well.

I solved both problems in my thread. So I gave the best possible AC for both classes without simply turning them into another worse version of a fighter.