Best cleric 'special powers'

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coin:

Not exactly.

I just did my own testing. I bombarded Hedron with Command spells, and then came across a very surprising result. A total save of 15 meant he successfully resisted my Command spell. But a couple of castings later, a total save of 15 resulted in him failing his save. And no, he didn't roll a critical failure.

This threw me into a spin, but then it all made sense. Tyrant's Dictum only applies to Domain spells.

So I tested it again. After five minutes, I got my conclusive evidence.

Command (priest spell): Hedron rolls 11 + 4 = Successful save.

Command (domain spell): Hedron rolls 11 + 4 = Fails save.

 

Thanks for clearing that up, then. And kudos for the eureka-moment there.

 

Interesting. Just again proves that vox populi is always right. However indeed, +4 WIS is a feature on its own.

 

Looking at the poll results that would mean the axe feat is the best... Yeah, "right" (translates as "wrong" in my book).

 

I like Identify. Early in the game, I do not want to select Identify as one of my sorcerer's spells. I also do not want to use precious slots from my Wizard on Identify either. I just find that it is just less trouble, particulary early on, when my cleric can cast Identify twice a day.

The Axe feats are nice, but I find that there are other weapons that I would rather have my cleric use often like the various shortswords, maces and morningstars. My fighter types would end up using any good axes anyway.

 

Coin, you're comparing apples and oranges in the way that you are using terminology.

An increase from a 50% to 55% is a 5% percentage POINT increase, but overall the increase is a 10 PERCENT improvement, because 5 is 1/10th of 50. Let's use different numbers.

If you increase from 5% to 10%, it's a 5 percentage POINT increase, but it's a 100 PERCENT improvement, since you would have doubled the probablility of success. If you increase from 5% to 15%, it's a 10 percentage POINT increase, but it's a 200 PERCENT improvement, since you've tripled the probability of success.

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I generally prefer abilities that are on all the time, so that I don't have to remember to use them in the middle of a battle. The Loremaster's Identify ability, while not a constant (on all the time) ability, since it is a very useful non-combat ability, I tend to not overlook it when I've used loremasters.

 

I get what he meant, but it was still wrong to translate the effectivity of +1 DC to a 10% increase. 1 point in DC will change the outcome of dice rolls 1/20th of the times, meaning 5% more effectivity. I didn't understand why he chose to make it into 10% more effectivity, just because 55 is 10% more than 50. He's dividing the results with half of the dice rolls for no apparent reason. To calculate effectivity, you must compare the rolls to the full 100%. 1/20=0.05.

 

No, Coin, you're wrong. Once again, you are mixing apples and oranges with your misuse of statistical language, and clearly are not "getting it" ... yet.

An increase from 50% to 55% effectiveness absolutely 100% (pardon the pun) *IS* a 10% increase. It is only a 5 percentage POINT increase.

5 percentage POINTS represents 10 PERCENT of 50, thus meaning that an increase from 50% to 55% is a 10 PERCENT increase.

 

You're treating me like I don't understand percentages. Did you look at the original statement, that started all the discussion? Do you agree with the above statement?
What he did wrong, probably, what assuming that 'roll a 10' meant 'rolling a d10' instead of 'rolling 10 on a d20 die'. That's why he doubled the likelihood. No idea how he comes by 11% instead of 9% though.
I stand by my statement that every increment of +1DC will improve fail-save results by enemies by another 4.5%. That's 5%, minus rolling 1 or 20, where DC bonus won't change results.

 

1 or 20 aren't the only outcomes for the d20 roll where +1DC bonus won't change results, there are at least 17 others, I guess you already applied this when getting the 5%.

The probabilty for the +1DC changing the outcome is 5% multiplicated with the (unknown) probability that the enemy save bonus isn't "out of bounds" (oub = rolling 20 required even without applying the +1 DC or rolling 2 is enough even after applying the +1 DC).

 

The enemy save being out of bounds isn't considered, since as you say, it's an unknown factor. Much like the chance that a creature has Spell Resistance, Evasion, or is innately immune to the effects of the spell. But with the save bonus of the enemy being unknown, there are still only 18 possible rolls of the d20 where a DC bonus has a chance of affecting the outcome.

 

If the saves aren't out of bounds, one of the 18 possible rolls from 2-19 will make a difference, so if you consider only those 18 rolls the chance for a difference is 1/18 (5,55... %), not 1/20 (5 %).
If you add the possibilty of rolling 1 or 20 into consideration, the 1/18 will drop to your 5%, but you can't apply it twice.

 

The 4.5% is to evaluate the effect that +1DC would have on average dice rolls (within aforementioned conditions). Although the effects of out-of-bounds saves, SR, Evasion, and immunity can't be included in the calcultation, the chance of rolling 1 or 20 can, so I subtract it from the 1/20th chance.

To evaluate DC bonus abilities, you can't just make it 1/18th, because there is always chance of rolling 1 or 20. In both cases, a DC bonus won't influence the outcome, so it can be subtracted from the +1DC's chance of influencing outcomes. 90% of 5% is 4.5%.

 

You're applying the 1 and 20 special case twice.

If the enemy save bonus isn't out of bounds there's exactly one roll from 2 to 19 where +1 DC will make a difference. No matter if this roll is 2,3,...,18 or 19, the chance to get it with a d20 roll is exactly 5 percent.

 

But if the number to roll the enemy save were 1 or 20, then the DC bonus doesn't matter. Although it should have changed the outcome (5% chance), it didn't, because it automatically fails anyway / saves, respectively. These dice rolls are always out-of-bounds of the DC bonus, and are always a part of the dice roll. So they should be subtracted from your total success chance. It's like the zero on the roulette wheel.

 

Maybe we have a different understanding for "out of bounds", which I defined earlier.
(Spell DC - Monster save bonus) isn't out of bounds if and only if
one of those cases applies:

a) Monster needs to roll at least a 2 to save without and at least a 3 with the +1 DC applied.
b) Monster needs to roll at least a 3 to save without and at least a 4 with the +1 DC applied.
...
q) Monster needs to roll at least a 18 to save without and at least a 19 with the +1 DC applied.
r) Monster needs to roll at least a 19 to save without and at least a 20 with the +1 DC applied.


+1 DC will make a difference in case

a) if and only if a 2 is rolled (probability 5%)
b) if and only if a 3 is rolled (probability 5%)
...
q) if and only if a 18 is rolled (probability 5%)
r) if and only if a 19 is rolled (probability 5%)


So if (Spell DC - Monster save bonus) isn't "out of bounds", the probability for +1 DC making a difference is always 5%.

I guess you got your 4.5 % by assuming that case a)...r) all have the same probality of 5% which is a wrong assumption with my definition for "out of bounds", since adding all probabilities together must yield 100 %, not 90 %.

 

Why not mix it up with fighter levels? it would make it that much cheaper to get maximized attack. Since, you are that much closer to weapon specialization.

And tempus order bonus was fighter wasn't it?

I've never tried this, but sounds doable.

 

From a pure powergaming perspective, it would delay your character from getting spell levels sooner, while the bonuses (a little more attack bonus, and some hitpoints) don't make up for getting the spells later in the game. The Axe feats offer a great advantage, because you're not limited to simple weapons, even if you haven't mixed in warrior levels (yet). Taking fighter levels in Heart of Fury mode, when you're much higher level, does become worthwhile. But it's best to stay (nearly) pure in the normal game.

 

thx coin.

 

You're welcome

Only paladins and monks have limited mix-ins allowed by their orders, not clerics. For the rest, classes are restricted by the chosen race's 'favoured class', which determines which class is excluded from the calculation of the XP penalty. When talking about a 'bonus', then we mean the quest bonus that banites get:

Spoiler

What was meant by banite quest bonus, is that Banites get +2WIS at a certain point in the game. Although, I found that it was difficult to get the game to actually confer this bonus. I had a full Banite, and an illusionist, a druid and a bard, all with a level Dreadmaster of Bane mixed in. After the battle with Hiephierus (a complicated procedure, because I relied on Greater Command to incapacitate the Neo-Orog Marauders, and had to prevent Hiephierus from casting Insect Plague, which wakes them up), the game should have given all four of my Banite characters +2 WIS. But instead, my bard got it, in the second repeat my cleric and illusionist got +2WIS, then I just got annoyed. Since it was so difficult for all 4 of my party to get it, I just edited my characters, as if the computer had destowed the bonuses properly... I would've preferred to have gotten it the normal way, though.