Best race for a sorcerer?

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Wizards can cast level 2 spells at wizard level 3
Sorcerers cast levels 2 spells starting at sorcerer level 4.

Wizards consistently cast spells a level sooner, up until level 10, then they both gain spell levels at even levels: level 6 spells at sorc/wiz lvl 12, lvl7 spells at sorc/wiz lvl 14, etc.

I can't explain it any better than that

 

ooooooooh......I get it. Sorry, I tend to just go for 'See monster, Kill monster' it makes things so much easier! lol

 

Incorrect. You are thinking of the 2E progression. IWD2 uses 3E rules (mostly). Wizards gain new spell levels at every odd class level.

 

Okay, I was wondering about that, but didn't know how to check it at short notice... So I was wrong. Wizards can cast level 9 spells at wizard level 17 then, not 18...?
Since I'm writing an IWD2 guide at the moment, that's good to know. Thanks!

 

Sure it can. Just use the cheat code to increase the XP of your sorcerer to the next level. That way he gets spells just as soon as a wizard.

I agree that it is annoying when you reach a level high enough to cast a new level of spells, but cannot find them anywhere. That is why I like sorcerers. When you can cast a new level of spells, you can choose which ones you want instead of the useless ones you find sometimes.

 

Ironically, I don't like to cheat up my XP. To me gaining XP is a main point of the game and even though the cheat I use for my wizard make things easier, I don't want to make things TOO easy!

 

I would always use humans for Sorcerers. The extra feat comes in handy to get them subvocal casting on top of what else you want (or something else first, but subvocal casting REALLY comes in handy in IWD II). And since you're raising your CHA instead of INT, the bonus skill points help you get all the skills you want.

For soloing I wouldn't waste feats or levels on improving your close combat capabilites, unless you are really set on wielding a certain weapon. A pure sorcerer used solo becomes very powerful very quickly. And anything that can't be annihilated by spells can be beaten in melee by high level summon spells. AOE spells, especially caster centered ones, become a sorcerers bread and butter in soloed games, because you don't have to worry about catching your party in the explosion.

You also have to worry about multi-class penalties when class mixing. The aim is to become more powerful as the game progresses, not to get good-looking bonuses early on at the cost of losing out on high-level bonuses of classes because you are levelling too slowly. And for classes such as mages and sorcerors that don't gain abilities at high levels, you will miss out on the powerful high-level spells unless you cheat to get XP.

 

Thats quite a difficult question. I dont think there is a definite answer. It largely depends on expectations.
-drow, 20cha, SR, cool
-aasimar, 20cha, paladin.
-human, extra feat, extra skill, paladin.

I would personally pick drow. They combine best offense(20cha), best defense(SR) and being cool makes them fun to play. In addition they can still take a level of paladin if needed, it just costs a bit more.. or not, thanks to IWD2 "interesting" exp system.

Humans.. have an extra feat for which there is no need, lvl30 gives plenty. Extra skillpoints, for which there is no need either, since they cannot put gained points into important things like charisma. Have no defense, means they are much more interested in multiclassing to paladin, which is -1 level. Which is worse than ECL, since they end up being lvl29 sorc, while a drow can rock and be lvl30, in addition to his/hers already better CHA.

Aasimar is in the middle between them. Mostly good because it just synergizes so well i think. 20cha, favored class paladin, being half-celestial as a reason for being Lawful Good. It just screams for a sorcX/pal1 build.

---------- Added 1 hours, 15 minutes and 41 seconds later... ----------

Human vs Drow Sorcerer:
---------------------
Str: 10 vs 10
Dex: 18 vs 18
Con: 18 vs 16
Int: 3 vs 12
Wis: 4 vs 4
Cha: 18 vs 20

Now human still has 5 leftover points he got from dumping INT. But nowhere to put them, all the important stats are already maxed. Ok we put them into Wis, obvious choice, resulting in -1 modifier, where Drow has a -3. So all this talk about extra skill points and extra stat points in reality translates into merely +2 will saves advantage for the human. Or does it? Because, surprise, the Drow has a racial ability +2 will saves. Getting even. And still has Spell Resistance, and higher cha.

 

If you make the mistake to waste the points for wisdom, the human has still +1 will saves because of the two extra levels.
And 18+1 hitpoints per level, and 2 casting levels, ...

 

Uhm what? The only places to put these 5 points into are str and wis. You dont want to put them into wis.. so i assume its a sorc with 15str and 4wis. And the use of it is? Two extra levels? not in iwd2 with its dynamic exp system. 19hp more per level? I dont think so. A drow has -1 to concentration ill give you that. Pretty small prize to pay for being a superior sorc.

 

A human sorcerer is a way more versatile character to play, and can handle himself if he is approached by an enemy. The 16STR (18 in HoF with both paladin's quest bonuses) will give much better bonuses than 9WIS.

I've never understood why people put points in Wisdom, if the only bonus is to the will saving throw. Strength gives more attack bonus, damage, carrying capacity, and is a prerequisiste for certain items. People seem reluctant to play a high-STR sorcerer, but this is more of a roleplaying condition than powergaming. You can scoff at using your sorcerer in melee, but the fact is, it will help you out so many more times than +3 to will saves.
The s. t. bonus from mixing in paladin goes much further than Wisdom can, and continues to increase as you maximize your charisma.

+1 hitpoint per level is an important defensive boost. Spell Resistance only protects from spells, while hitpoints 'protect' from all damage. You'll find that combat damage is an important factor, and you'll need these hitpoints.

 

Personally, I like regular elves (I'm also used to 2.5 not 3) for the dex bonus. I think a dex bonus would be far more helpful in combat for a sorcerer than str. I do tend to keep my casters in the back (because they have terrible BAB and no armor and all), so they use ranged attacks, which get their attack boost from Dex not Str, and Dex also gives a boost to armor, which is the really important thing for a caster. If you're building your sorcerer as a fighter-sorcerer type, then Str works well, but I think I'd still go Dex and Weapons Finesse. That way you can focus more uses into one stat. From that, you get a saving throw (one seen a lot more often in most games than will), armor, bab, and a whole slew of skills.

I personally wouldn't go for any race that has a level modifier, simply because I usually don't think it's worth it. Maybe one level if you also get all the stats you want (Cha & Dex, while loosing, umm, Int?), but I don't think there's a race for that in 3.0.

 

Strength is irrelevant for a sorc. if youre meleing with a sorc you are doing it wrong. Strength is irrelevant, so are the supposedly "extra" statpoints. So are the supposedly extra skillpoints. Remaining are Spell Resistance, more spells, better spells, stronger spells of a Drow. In IWD2 Drow wins, plain and simple. His only (big) drawback is 2 ECL, which in IWD2 is not really a disadvantage since they are getting more exp for being lower level.

thats because people, especially powergamers, use spells with casters, not swords.

This is because sorc30 is better than sorc29. Having low wis means you have to take a paladin, that is opting a stronger sorc for defense. And a possibility to inflict a bit of damage with a sword, instead of casting Wail of Banshee. For some unknown reason.

 

I played through my last HoF run through, not including the Battle Squares challenges which I skipped, while only resting about 7 times. I used my spells carefully, what's wrong with that? If the game had a time limit, my party might actually have defeated Isair and Madae on time.
My sorceress uses a mod item bow, allowed by her ranger mix-in, to gain a strength bonus to damage dealt by this bow, on top of its +6 dmg, so she's an awesome ranged attacker in combat, when I think spellcasting is inefficient or unnecessary.

YOUR sorcerer's strength is so low, that the thought of entering melee seems ridiculous. Mine is a decent fighter when necessary, so we use different playstyles and tactics, that's all. Strength isn't irrelevant. My sorcerer isn't developed to be most effective at spellcasting, at any expense. Losing STR, versatility, multiclassing options, saving throws, getting level penalties, limited weapons and items, etcetc. All this, for +2CHA and innate SR? It's just not an effective trade off.

All you need, is 2 per level to cover concentration and spellcraft. It requires 12INT for a non-human, meaning it costs them 9! stat points to get. Oh, wait, stat points were irrelevant. All sorcerers need to do is cast spells, so anything that isn't directly related with this, is irrelevant... Okay, what about: The +3 attack bonus and damage modifier will add to the damage dealt by magically created weapons. They're sorcerer spells too, so they are relevant by your reasoning.

Human sorcX/pal1 can get sky-high saving throw bonuses, with a level monk they get Evasion + high-DEX meaning they evade most damaging spells, and with a level ranger later on, they can dual-wield both normal and HoF paladin swords, allowing them to have 48SR. High saves, good Evasion, and SR, that's 2 more layers of spell protection than Drow can achieve.
As for more spells: A powergaming guide describes how humans will have 1 more higher level spell vs. the Aasimar's 2 more lower level ones throughout the game, but it's hard to compare. And I'm not sure if this holds up for the Drow either.
As for better spells: Their DC is 1 higher, meaning they have a 4.5% higher effectiveness. But this is only for spells with saving throws. The added versatility of a human's STR and mix-in options are well worth the marginal drawback.
+2CHA doesn't make spells stronger, this is done by the caster level, meaning Drow spells are weaker.

 

Yes, thats a common point made by human sorcerers. However i dont see a yet convincing reason why putting them all into str makes the char better, or of any use. Unless you can prove that hacking away with a sword@22 str or whatever is stronger than casting WoB or say DBFB or just about every other spell.

Not at all. Drow can go the paladin route as well. And, again excel in protection. Only for them it is optional. Also, say you have 3 sorcs in a party, and a paladin then what. DaleKeeping 7 Holy Avengers? Item reliance is bad.

Ok, that versatile human sorc is already 3 levels behind a drow sorc. Not that the drow cannot do that, he just doesnt have to.

Added:

It does. The equation is: primary casting stat(CHA)+spell level+other bonuses(like SF).
In our case Drow+2Cha, compared to a human-3lvl of something. Thats 4 DC difference. Im also assuming he is lacking spellfocuses somewhere, since he also needs melee feats, like Dirty fighting or power attack. Thats 6-8 DC difference already. That versatile human sorc is not gonna successfully cast anything with a save, especially not a WoB. Here goes all the damage already..

 

Eh, are you forgetting that human sorcerers also cast Wo/tB and DBFB? When pure, they cast it sooner, and the DBFB would get 2 more die of damage. The only setback, is that in 4.5% of the cases, victims will make their save, where they'd fail it if the caster were a Drow or Aasimar.

Yes, this human sorcerer would get 3 mix-in levels eventually, at high level, when leveling your sorcerer is not as crucial as in the beginning. Those 3 levels would put him 1 level behind the Drow, but with too many advantages to go into again. You can't possibly see all these advantages as irrelevant, can you? A sorcerer's main task is spellcasting, and I've optimized (not maximized) my character for this purpose. But if you see spellcasting as the only task of a sorcerer, totally disregarding stuff like taking damage, and ending a scrappy fight quickly and effectively, then that's just tunnel-vision, and thinking inside-the-box...
So if a goblin retargets during an ambush, and goes after my sorceress, then curse me, because I was using my sorceress wrong?? And if I decide to take care of the goblin directly (which she handles easily), rather than run around and wait for another party member to take care of it, then I'm making a wrong move? C'mon, everyone plays the game their own way, telling me that my playstyle is wrong is going a bit too far.
So you don't like sorcerers with combat skills. OK, I get it already. They're still effective, whether you like it or not.

Oh, and the reason that human spells are stronger, is that they get more hit die of damage, because the human is higher level.
DC is effectiveness of the spell.
Strength of a spell can be described by the number of die of damage dealt: a level 14 sorcerer will cast a 14d8 DBFB, a level 16 caster casts a 16d8 DBFB.

 

So far i see a Drow sorc casting a hypothetical WotB and 14 mobs out of 20 die. In case of a human sorc/ranger/monk/paladin 6-8 out of 20 die. Thats 100% more power for a Drow. I dont see how getting twice as weak is an optimizing.

Stoneskin, mirror image, iron skins..,and in general, not being in the frontlines.And spell resistance. And party. Certainly not STR. Or, at least i dont see how it is supposed to help in any way.

I can, because all these advantages cripple the caster. They just do. And thats the whole point of having a sorc in the first place, to cast. Not to fight. A cleric is better for that. Or some multiclass, which doesnt depend on levels to deal damage.

as far as i remember, it was you calling everyone who is not maxing STR on a sorc, not a powergamer. Which isnt quite an honor to have that title i admit , but the implication is not really nice either. I quote

People dont have str on theirs sorcs exactly because it is inferior. But roleplaying, sure, why not. It seems quite interesting, i cannot deny it. However im long over that phase of putting all the stuff i can find into sorc, hell i even played a sorc in full plate armor in NWN1 with all still feats applied. That was fun. Looked great.

 

You see this? Do you have any calculations to support this wild claim, or did you just cheat-level two sorcerers up, and cast Wo/tB on the same group, so actually observing this? I find this very hard to believe, and it would only mean that the game is bugged in favour of Drow or something. +1DC gives a 4.5% boost to saving throw results, that's all.

I'm not gonna cast Mirror Image everytime a lone goblin approaches my caster, first of all it's a waste. The great advantage of combat over this, is that you can continue your casting while fighting, since combat or running doesn't use up your casting round, but casting something like MI does, meaning you'll have to wait before you can cast again.

A lot of signing statements, but no facts to back up the claims.

If you had bothered to read what I first said on this thread, you'd find this:

I suggest we leave it at this.

 

The drow SR is nearly useless, since enemies hardly ever cast spells, especially not if you use the sorc as background caster. Even the little -2 con penalty hurts more and the ECL penalty is far worse unless you cheat for leveling.

 

coineineagh
The game is not bugged, DC is just that important. Having a -8 penalty to it at the cost of convenience perks is an absolute suicide. Calculations are above, but of little use, as long as you continue to not see the difference between dice rolls and damage dealt. 8*5% is a 40% increase in success, which can easily cause double, triple damage, up to 800% damage increase.