Best race for a sorcerer?

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Roller:

Where did you get the 4DC difference from? Wouldn't it only be a 1DC difference (from the charisma)?

 

Hmm yes. It is probably also possible to get the SFs in. In which case the difference would be back to -1. Only what for. To have more str on a sorc and wasting str boosting quests and items on him. Well to each its own. i guess we have to agree to disagree.

 

The difference between drow and human is always 1DC (due to the +2 to Charisma the drow receives), all other things being equal.

 

Yeah, we're talking about a powergamed sorcerer, that has as only drawback (related to spellcasting), a
-1DC when compared with Aasimar or Drow.

No idea where you got the -8 from here, but I'm assuming you mistakenly thought i was making my sorcerer into a character with melee priority.

Damage dice of spells are increased with caster level, which is an advantage for fast-leveling humans.
Difficulty Class is increased by CHA and feats, putting the Aasimar and Drow at a slight +1 advantage.

 

If we ignore the first few levels where everyone starts at level 1 and advances to level 2 after 1,000 XP gained a drow sorcerer is at no point in a normal game as powerful as a human sorcerer who gained the same XP.
During the game the comparison rather works like this:

When the human gains fireball to wipe out goblin hordes from afar the little HP drow has to go to the front line and tickle the goblins with burning hands.
While the drow is still limited to confusion the human can cast chaos which means extra +5 to DC, +1 to DC for extra cha cannot compare to this.

 

At the risk of contradicting myself, and spoiling it for others, I should mention a slight advantage that Aasimar and Drow have over Humans, when min-maxing:
If you make a character with 13INT and 16CHA, you can then persuade Heggr Splitsteel in the Underdark to give you a 20% discount, and 20% markup on sales to him. So it's a significant money-boost in mid-game... But it's definitely not enough to make me regret taking a human sorceress.

 

The thing, coineagh, is that you make it seem like a Human sorcerer can do everything you have said all at once and at the same time. Point is that the Drow will always have 2 more CHA and have SR while the human will always be able to cast spells 1 level higher than the Drow in the main campaign. Anything else is relative.

Optimizing/maximizingdoesn't necessarily mean that you have to make a character excel at everything because this is Icewind dale, not Neverwinter Nights. You start and end with a party. By the time my Sorcerer has finished spellcasting and tries to lift his finger to do anything else the rest of my characters have taken care of everything. And when nukes are not required, he has enough items to play around with so that all he basically does is stand there and activate something.

kmonster's concern of doing early game with a Drow Sorcerer can be easily addressed if you're bringing a Wizard or even a Druid with you, which I usually do. By the time the Druid's early-mid nukes start to wane or the Wizard starts to forego nukes for other important spells the Drow Sorcerer should have leveled enough to earn his keep. While Human Sorcerers are unique in that they can assume the position of primary caster with no effort, having a Sorcerer as a main caster has its downsides and I prefer a Wizard and/or Druid and Drow Sorcerer combo.

SR is apparently being underestimated. Considering that for the better part of the game only Drow and Swirfeblin have any SR to speak of, and by the time the Holy Avenger/s become acessible a large chunk of the game has already passed then as far as utility goes there is no contest. Having SR for the larger part of the game when casters are at their most vulnerable is larger plus than having godly SR and saves late game when the ones that should really have those are the frontliners.

SR is not only about avoiding damage if you can't aim a fireball right or something. It's worth noting that a lot of the encounters in the game happen with the something-to-be-nuked standing dangerously close to the soon-to-be-nuker, which is the whole point why a certain JUPP employs decoys builds in the first place. Combine that with the ability to resist harmful spells (there'll be a good number of those), magic traps (quite a few nasties) and necessary spells like Engtanglement or Web...

 

A human paladin1/monk1/sorcererX gets 3 layers of protection: monk Evasion, and the sky-high saving throws resulting from the paladin mix-in's CHA-bonus to saves. Later you can wield the paladin sword for SR too (dual-wield in HoF: 16+32=48SR). You potentially start with an 18% better save chance (18CHA = +4s.t.), which will only get better as you advance in Charisma.
Naturally the drow get SR from the start, but it's like you said:

Casting spells from items is still casting spells - my sorceress can do something else, when casting spells is useless, wasteful or inefficient. Early on, my human sorceress will get access to early & mid-level spells much sooner than your drow. Later, when I have 2 mix-ins, the advantage is gone, but versatility is much improved. The way I play, I haven't even needed the monk level yet. It will probably be in Heart of Fury mode, before I feel it's worthwhile to delay advancing my sorceress. Right now, I've got a pal1/rgr1/sorc15 towards the end of normal mode, and haven't felt a real need to take a monk level yet. The ranger level taken is due to the Green Bow (+3att +6dmg +STR-bonus to dmg! Ideal for my 16STR+Bull's, 18DEX+Cat's sorceress who strikes for very good ranged damage. Usable by good rangers only), and the Falcon Arrow (+1, +5 enchanted returning arrow, usable by good warriors only), both from Light of Selune mod.
High saving throw bonuses offer some protection, and Evasion + high reflexes is a decent surrogate for actual Spell Resistance. Eventually my entire party can get one or both protections. But I haven't felt the need for it, as spell progression for earlier access is more important.

One thing that I am coming to realize, is that the best kind of BARD is a Drow, not a human: A female drow can take a Dreadmaster mix-in later on (for +4WIS total in HoF mode), and gets a boost to CHA, DEX and INT! My current human has 16STR which she never uses atall. A drow bard with 6STR, 20DEX, 16CON, 14INT, 4WIS and 20CHA is a great deal better. Starting 2 levels behind is painful, but once you have the bard's level 3 spells, you've got the most useful ones anyway. The bonus of SR for a bard is valuable, since it is a potential decoy. The 14INT allows for Expertise, more skillpoints, and a host of potential dialogue options (Heggr Splitsteel's aforementioned trading bonus alone makes it literally valuable). With 8 strength, I'll have enough to get by, but in my experience a bard never uses combat, EVER. If used properly, a bard is always better off singing and casting spells.

 

I rather wrote the opposite, that "If we ignore the first few levels ... a drow sorcerer is at no point in a normal game as powerful as a human sorcerer who gained the same XP".

Tell me a normal mode level where a drow sorcerer is as good as a human 2 levels higher.
You won't be able to do so.

 

it does let you bombard your own party members with area of effect spells without too much concern for what happens. This, coupled with Evasion and high reflex saves, can let you have characters nearly immune to most forms of magic damage. Very, very useful if your sorc can cast sunfire, fireball, dbfb, or abi dhalzims horrid wilting without caring if he hits your party members.

The thing about Drow sorcs, is that they tend to work best if your whole party are also drow or other ECL races. You see, if you have say one drow with 5 non ecl races, the drows lower level isnt enough to bring the average party level down and increase experience gains. But, if all members of the party are ECL races (or most), then the party's average level really is lower, and thus you will get more experience. You end up having the same levels as the non ecl party, because the game uses challenge rating to boost your experience gains.

As for sorc builds and races.... I usually use Aasimar because of the bonus to ability scores. My primary sorcerer (and I almost never have more than one) always needs high intelligence both to open dialog options, but also so that he can have lots of skill points for the talking skills. So, having a human and lowering intelligence to 3 is no use for me, because I want those extra skill points. Sure, I could choos a human and get 1 bonus skill point per level, but the bonus ability scores are far more valuable to me. And as I said, with a party composed of 1 aasimar and a lot of drow, I only have ECL characters, which lowers my average party level, which boosts experience, which gets me back into equivalent levels as a non ecl party. The only disadvantage is that aasimars favoured race is paladin, which means I can mix in a level of paladin but not monk.

If I did make a human sorc, he would definitely get a level of monk for evasion, but that would come at the cost of those lovely ability points including the +2 to charisma. That would lower his spell DCs and bonus spells, and raise item prices in the store, and with the human needing to take a monk level anyway, the two characters would be equivalent in terms of spell availability, but the human would fit worse in the ecl party.

 

When there's a Wizard who's in charge of the critical spellcasting and the Drow already has enough nukes to do wipe out a room by himself, say somewhere around the Underdark? At this point they're basically just as useful.

Although ideally a Human Sorcerer+Wizard combo would still be better in terms of spellcasting power, the Wizard's presence simply takes off some of the edge that a Human sorcerer's advanced caster level would have with respect to the original campaign. There's little point in having more spellcasting power if everything's already dead.

With two or so casters around the Sorcerer's role is relegated to more of a pure nuker. Since best nukes are from spell levels 3-6, then 8-9 once the Drow hits level 12 he's basically no different from the Human - expected to throw out Skull Traps, Fireballs or Sunfires while the Wizard casts Chaos or any of the other enchantment/level-dependent spells. All throughout this point that SR is gonna come in really handy.

The Drow only really starts losing out to the Human once the Human hits character level 17 or so, and gains his first 8th level spell. Sadly this usually happens by the time you get to the last battle with Isair/Madae. At around character level 20 spellcasting level starts to even out again though.

 

A level 12 drow sorcerer with 16 con has 84 hitpoints while a level 14 human with 18 con has 112 hitpoints. The extra hitpoints help far more surviving than all drow bonusses together.

The human can cast delayed blast fireball for 14d8 damage while the drow can cast fireball for 10d6 damage with easier saves for the enemy.
He will also do more damage with nuke spells like skull trap or chain lightning in spite of the lower charima, nearly all spell effects depend on level.
The level 12 drow doesn't know any level 7 spells and only 1 level 6 spell.

 

What I forgot to mention, is that Drow Deathsingers are the coolest enemies in the game, so having a drow bard with my 2 drow priestesses, is gonna really add to the aesthetic & roleplaying value of my party
By the way, are drow bards usually male, or can they be of both sexes? I know it's female priestesses, and male wizards, fighters and (probably) rogues, but how do bards fit in?

 

I roll with a gnome sorcerer. :/ am I doing something wrong?
Talos Cleric (lol half-orc) casts pretty heavy but is a front line player.
Dwarf Fighter anti-caster
Half-orc Barbarian anti-anything.
Normal Elf Bard -backup healer and buffer
Halfling Rogue-picks up guy.
Gnome Sorcerer. Pew Pew

anything wrong with this party make up...not trying to derail or anything.
But you guys spend a whole lot of time arguing of a few points of percentage and a few random dice rolls.

 

Gnome is a good race for sorcerer, extra con grants useful extra hitpoints while the strength penalty isn't that bad.
Your party is fine, make sure everyone except the sorcerer and bard have maxed strength.

 

I disagree. Unless you make it a point for your Sorcerer to actually get hit in combat, 30 HP pales next to the bonuses.

I've previously discussed all my arguements.

I never get why some think Bards are not fit for melee the way classes like the Clerics are. Unless I'm missing my guess and Clerics are supposed to befully-buffed after every rest, then for the most part their Clerics are only relying on their base stats plus a few aoe buffing spells where most battles are concerned - give or take a few important castings and not considering major preparations for major battles. A Bard can excel in melee as much.
Try a 14-16 Str/Con Bard with Tymora's Melody and compare to singing/casting pansy with some ranged weapon proficiency counterpart.

 

To summarize:

1. A drow sorc in an all-drow party will be better than a human sorc in an all-human party, because they will be the same level most of the time, and the drow bonuses are better than the human bonuses.

2. A drow sorc in an all-drow party will be worse than a human sorc in a all-drow party, because the human will be two levels ahead. After level 20 or so, the drow sorc will move ahead, because in late HOF his defensive bonuses are worth more than the offensive bonuses of another couple sorc levels.

3. A drow sorc in an all-human party will be worse than a a human sorc in a all-human party, because the drow will be two levels behind. Just like #2, in late HOF the drow sorc eventually becomes better than the human sorc.

4. A drow sorc in an all-human party will be four levels behind a human sorc in an all-drow party.


A drow sorc in an all-human party is clearly a pretty dumb idea, so comparisons #3 and #4 aren't worth considering.

Arguably, a human sorc in an all-drow party is gaming the XP system, because he will be two levels ahead of a human sorc in an all-human party. This is the path which leads down to xp mules and level squatting. So you may want to discount comparison #2.

 

Perhaps a way to help settle which build is better is to have them duel. Although such duels would be grossly biased in favour of the Drow because of their magic resistance. Hmmm.

 

I did this, and I found that my bard never engages in combat. Combat takes many rounds, and unless you like stopping every two rounds to activate the Lingering Song, the bard will be missing out on singing and casting if it engages in combat. The best use of a bard involves singing, casting, and *maybe* some ranged attacks when mopping up at the end. Casting a spell is no problem with Lingering Song feat active, when "autopause:spell cast" kicks in, you can just resume singing again. Not at all like awkward micromanagement during melee. The bard is even less useful in combat than my sorcerer and wizard, so I recently adjusted the bard to accomodate this; reducing strength and increasing intelligence, for skills and dialogue options.

So because it gets an XP bonus, it should be disconsidered, because it's an unfair game exploit or something? I don't get the reasoning here.
You forgot to mention the human's greatest advantage, of allowing for mix-ins. At high level, when the drow's ECL level becomes less of a disadvantage, and innate SR starts to pay off, the human can mix-in a monk level. The monk Evasion + sky-high saving throws from the paladin mix-in enables it to completely avoid reflex-save spell damage, and it will save against most other spells too, because of the high saving throws.
Against powerful (high level) enemies, high saves are better than SR, because SR must defend against caster level:

A level 20 cleric (Madae in normal mode) casts a Hold Person and 'attacks' your SR with a 1d20+20(=caster level). Your drow sorcerer in a party of six will be about level 16. This gives it a SR of 11+16=27. For the level 16 sorc, the spell will be resisted 35% of the time.

Now as for the will saving throw of a human sorc, a pal1/monk1/sorc16 gets a +11 save bonus naked, which can be easily enhanced to +17 with a few items and buff spells, nothing too elaborate. This means that the sorcerer can easily resist an attack roll of (10+17=)27 or lower.
Madae attacks with a 1d20 + 8 (WIS bonus) + 2 (spell level). This gives her only a 15% chance to make the human sorc fail a save.

I'm not sure how high a drow's will save is precisely, but I'm assuming it is minus the CHA-bonus to saves, because of not having a paladin level. So let's say the save bonus of a lvl16 drow sorc is about +10 with buffs and items. This would give the sorc a 50% save chance, enhanced by 35% from SR success, would make 62% percent chance of successfully saving or resisting the spell.

Madae's casting success against a:
lvl16 drow sorc = 38%
human pal1/monk1/sorc16 = 15%
I think I'm being conservative in my estimate.

There are some spells that actually bypass SR too.

 

A normal spellcaster (no LA races involved) will be XL 17 at the end of the normal mode game. That's what the game is presumably balanced for. A human spellcaster in a party of drow will be XL 19 at the end of the normal mode game. If you don't see a problem here, well, maybe you should add some XP mules too and your sorc can reach level 25 or 30 in normal.