Big BAD America

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Flip side:

Over here it seems that no one likes London. I talk to people, and no one likes it. Lots of people hate it. So there must be something wrong with London.

No, wait. Just because people don't like you doesn't mean that you're wrong. It might be something else entirely.

But I'm glad you're going to take a new look at the peace, love, and pomposity of our beloved country.

 

I think you are being sarcastic, but actually, most of the standard criticisms about London are true- the inexpensive restaurant food is generally terrible, and it is really very dirty. Likewise, people from Paris are incredibly snotty compared with people from almost anywhere else- I'm sure Damona and Satiana would heartily agree with that even if I'm the only person from Paris they've ever met.

Negative perceptions, or positive ones for that matter, usually have a grain of truth in them. Stereotypes start somewhere, they aren't just pulled out of the blue. Are *all* people from one place the same? Of course not. But different cultures do promote different behaviours, and you can begin after awhile to notice trends in one group's behaviours vs. another's. I can lay about equal claim to being French, British, and Canadian, and I have observed some truth in the stereotypes about interacting with all three groups: Canadians tend to be unassertive and ridiculously politically correct, Brits tend to bottle things up (i.e. don't reveal increasing annoyance but explode seemingly out of the blue), the French tend to be racist, arrogant and shallow.

So?

Belonging to one of those nationalities doesn't mean you are automatically like that. Stereotypes about Canadians, Brits, the French shouldn't, and don't, offend me. But if you feel like pointing a finger, point it at the ones who earned the reputation in the first place. Don't blame tourists to France for finding the French rude- blame the waiter who pretended not to understand their attempts at speaking French, or the women who pointed at their clothes and laughed out loud.

 

But I don't think the issue here is the stereotype American. It's just that people dislike America. I think it is just because they are too powerful and when an underdog manages to beat them or get the better of them at something there's a tendency to say :"yeah, that'll show them that they're not so powerful". But they still are so the cycle goes on. Coupled with this is the fact that you tend to remember bad things about America but not the good ones. For instance:

Most people I know when I mention American movies say something like: "they are commercial, stupid, oversimplified". What is interesting is that the person usually hasn't seen ANY films that are not American. It's just that when one says 'American Film' people tend to think of Armaggedon or Pearl Harbour instead of films like Casablanca, Citizen Kane, Godfather etc.

Don't you find this interesting psychologically? It's as though the word American is immediately associated with something bad! Well, maybe I was wrong, maybe stereotypes do have something to do with it?

 

I don't think people do connect American = bad. Just think about how prominently manufacturers display "made in America" on their goods- they wouldn't do that if people weren't more eager to buy American-made products. For that matter, American consultants charge more outside of the US than do the "local" consultants, and people are glad to pay extra for the American expertise. In the business community, the perception is that anything American is inherently better than anything not American- whether that is employees, products, companies etc. And most of the people I know ONLY watch American films, and read American books. As for myself, as I've said before, I have a policy of only marrying Americans, which has worked out well for me thus far.

 

Thats just the problem, Sprite. Many people do think America=Bad.

Do NOT associate me with the views of Frog. I do not support much of the US's foreign policy, economic values or social order. And BTA, if you read my whole post, you would've realized that I don't suppport these arrogant, pointless views. Unfortunately my country is mostly made up of ignorant people who dont know better than to support their bully of a nation, and what I said embodies what they think. And sometimes, even I think America=Bad.

[I just reread your post, and I fail to see where you indicate your lack of support for the "American thought" you "explained" - BTA]

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited April 24, 2002).]

 

That's what I mean - people only watch American films. But when they ask me what country's cinematography do you like I always mention the US. And people generally go: "huh? But their films are crap". Then I ask them what their favourite films are and 8/10 are usually American!!

People do associate quality of industrial products and good business with America but as far as cultural impressions go I find that people tend to not rate Americans very high - even if untrue.

And just to clarify, I don't think people dislike America because of this. Rather that it is becuase they dislike (or look down upon America) that they feel this way (well, yes they have the armies, the weapons, the economy but dammit we got culture!!)

 

Ok everyone, deep breaths: in out in out good.
People hate Americans beacuse they only know the American sterotype. Hey! Americans hate other country's streotypes too!
When someone verbally attacks a large group of people, ignore them or tell them to stop. Then we won't have these annoying threads on the boards. You guys are getting very touchy! Relax, breath in, breath out.

 

Serena Lynx, good advice.

DRSW breaths in....out.

You know what orcured to me while reading a post here. Some one said that their surprised that America doesnt already rule the world or something like that.

I think theirs a reasion. If America did rule the world then their would be no one place that any one who wanted to leave a contry could go. People come to America to leave and get a some what better life. Lets face it unless you cant get money in the US your screwed). But then again people can leave the US too. If the world was ruled by one big ruler, for lack of better words, then their would be no place to run or to vist.

 

It was I who said that DRSW.
A note that should indirectly verify that US cannot be wicked. That they, as a nation, are friendly. But such simple messages will of course get clouded here at SP.

Anyway what has been achieved in this thread?

--- Missing Satiana's Point of the thread.
--- Realising that stereotypes don't include every single individual.

Hooo-ray for communication. :thumbs down:

EDIT; What will the next 40 posts reveal? That Americans are bad because they are good but they are still bad though good. Did it make sense? Not at all. So it fits very very well in this thread.

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited April 24, 2002).]

 

Sprite, there you go again presuming. Don't be so sure of yourself when you attempt to speak for other people. I would never let someone with such an attitude towards humanity represent me.

I don't care if we all can't love each other and live in peace, it doesn't matter. What does piss me off, highly, is someone stating glibly that stereotypes don't matter, and that they hold truth.

Possibly, stereotypes were rooted in truth at one time, but it's just plain ignorant to carry them on. Once, white people thought that black people were inferior. That is a stereotype. Viewing a statement of that nature through modern eyes, it's appalling. The things you are saying are just as bad, even about your own nationality. It's plain ignorant and hateful. It's prejudice. It's pre-judging. Who among us has the right to judge a fellow human, without knowing him or her? If you are Christian, please go consult your Bible.

Stereotypes should not ever be propagated. The Ku Klux Klan pushes stereotypes on their youngsters, breeding hate and ignorance over generations. You, by simply stating that stereotypes are truthful and continue to hold to them, are passing along dated lies.

If you were a teacher, would you look at an American student unfavorably due to her counry of origin? You say you know a few Americans that are nice, but to me, that's as elitist and racist as someone saying, "I know a nice black guy, but the rest of them <insert racial slurs here>..." I don't even want to get into the reprocussions of teaching these messages to children. Stereotypes are the fuel and fire of today's hate groups. Stereotypes are why Hitler did what he did. There is no OK stereotype.

By stating that a stereotype is the truth, you are cutting off any opportunity of learning and exchanging ideas. "Well, I already know that Americans are <insert cultural degradations here>, so why would I bother getting to know them, as a people."

I could really go on with this, but the more I type, the more angry I get. As I continue on, I feel as though I am beating my head against a wall, because it's the sad truth that you will never understand why the things you say are so ignorant. That's the problem with ignorance, it's seldom apparent to it's bearer. I'll just say, in closing, it saddens me greatly, that in this advanced era, we must rely on half-truths and prejudices to determine our friends.



[This message has been edited by Damona Silvercloud (edited April 24, 2002).]

 

Foreward: I wasn't sure if I was supposed to post this as an edit in the post that BTA responded to by editing or by creating a new post. Obviously, i chose the latter.

BTA: The part where I say i dont affirm to those values! BTW, are you from England?

Edit: BTA, I can understang why you did not like my previous post, and I edited it. Please check it out.

[Ah. Sorry I misunderstood your meaning. And no, you can check my profile for where I am from - BTA]

[This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited April 24, 2002).]

 

Damona: A little bit of (I hope) friendly advice. If you're too angry to type, maybe, just maybe you ought to hold off on slamming someone. Perhaps you're anger might be affecting how you read and interpret what is before you. Sprite did not state that stereotypes are true, *but* that many have originated from some true event. Nor did she state that she upheld such stereotypical beliefs. And not one of the examples she provided come even close to the views of the KKK. There is a huge difference between a stereotype and outright bigotry and hate mongering. A stereotype is the broadcasting of behaviours across a culture, nation or society based on a single or few incidents (eg, a rude French waiter, an obnoxious American tourist, a beer guzzling Canadian, etc.). While a stereotype can lead to racist beliefs, bigoted ideas are based in ignorance (blacks are lazy thieves, Jews sacrifice Christian babies during passover).

 

(note: due to the weight of the following messages of my opinion, I hope it is formatted correctly...enjoy...)

America is the place where the greatest 'evils' are found (just so that you religious people know - I
don't mean Satan and Jesus and all that, because I just heard a story about Catholic pedophernalia
and gay Mormon missionary photo shoots on the radio, so I don't think I'll put much faith into my
neighbors’ spiritual absolutes today).

By ‘evils’ I mean the intangible, disguised, omnipotent, unrealized fiends which haunt all that is
natural and pollute even the highest of natural things to the point whose largest feature is but one
of the sins in a self-proclaimed Bible: Greed.

What am I speaking of? Most Americans would never figure it out (that’s the way it’s supposed
to be), and it’s impossible to experience unless you’re in great America. A good way to explain
the greatest evil is to study the life of a typical American (based upon a daily survey).

An American male is born. His first scream is in a hospital, because his parents couldn’t
understand why he should be born anywhere else - how unnatural it would be! First the doctors
and nurses keep the baby so that a Birth Certificate can be created, which tells the baby’s name,
social security number, and various information imperative to the American tax system. His
parents are worried because they vaguely know that they should be with their child, but doctors
say their presence would not be for the best. How obvious.

The reason Mr. and Mrs. Joe had the child in the first place was because of two things: Marriage
(i.e. Sex Insurance) and The Natural Harmonic Drive for Sexual Stimulation. Mr. Joe was
making plenty of money at his saddening two-bit barber shop and Mrs. Joe was getting fat and
lazy around the house and needed something to do. So they decided that America needed another
taxpayer. Here he is conceived, after the parents watched a half-hour of Fox television to get
their sexual organs expecting.

The child spends its first few days in white plastic little rooms with tubes and gadgets and things
stuffed in its face for three reasons:
1) these are insurance that the child would live because they are obvious live-helpers.
2) these things have been ‘scientifically proven’. By who? No consequence.
3) these things can be sold by those who scientifically prove them.
The parents don’t know what they are, but it doesn’t matter. Doctors always know what they’re
doing.

The child is given to Mr. and Mrs. Joe. He is then transported to their mediocre house and raised
with capacious amounts of help from society. Without that help, Little Joe might grow up to be a
real nuisance. When he is old enough, he enters school. This is the biggest help that any person
could ever offer - even God. Like Daddy, Little Joe has a job to do everyday: go to school and
get good grades because that’s what everyone does. Nobody ever considers another way to live,
because school is just so much easier. Little Joe learns useable, valuable, knowledgeable,
important things, like American Football, American Baseball, and American Basketball. Soon
Little Joe is just the smartest boy there ever was - he can tackle damn near anybody. That’s a 4.0
GPA right there. Little Joe learns the most important lesson in life: do worksheets legibly so that
the teacher doesn’t have a hard time understanding them.

Nobody says the following...

“...Even though he hasn’t learned anything useable besides the difficulties of GPA-threatening
busy work in his entire school experience, the teachers get paid huge amounts to whine about
how much they get paid. That’s because most of them are under-qualified retardations of a long-
ago-useful system, who lack both the minds and personalities to combat against possible
nonconformity to the American society base, and have been babysitting since they went to school
themselves, which makes them so good at their job, which gives them the ability to whine for
more money in the name of young minds (which they, themselves, pollute frequently with laziness
and laziness-bribed easy standards of learning), which, ultimately, makes them greedy bastards
like most of the people involved in education (which is the reason it started in the first place,
which is a long, long time ago just after overpopulation began and people began to necessitize
generalization). Man’s best chunk of life is drawn and quartered by a brainwashing sermon from
an aging offspring of American tax dollars day after day after day, and this system has grown too
powerful to stop, so no one tries. The smarter of the students find themselves being conformed
into special niches and daily routines which are easy for the teachers to make money from, and
most of these kids kill themselves before twenty years. No payment for those who live is given,
except for the premonition of future payment (which happens whether or not busy work is
finished successfully, simply in degree of greediness), and America grows to have smarter, more
taxed people every year...”

Little Joe is religiously baptized early in his life so that he doesn’t have a large enough mind to
decide not to.

After that, just like his matriarch examples (270 million, and increasing, generally stupid people)
he gets a job. Every day this job is something he must manage to achieve money to compete in a
commercial world (even at home, where numerous scandals are committed to reach his thirsty
ears, scandals that tell when and how to spend his money through the use of electricity, which was
scientifically proven). His job earns his money, which he spends on three things:

Entertainment
Tithing
Taxes

And, as can be understood here, True Evil has three eyes.

These things scribed his life.
Entertainment scribed his life because he likes it and it gives him a reason to earn money.
Tithing scribed his life because spiritual beliefs help with social position, which is all the matter to
modern man.
Taxes scribed his life because the system itself was designed so that humans would spawn
frequently and more stupid people would be around to pay them, without any gathered resistance.
Can you name a stupid person?

 

But America does rule the world. You can buy a coca cola almost anywhere in the world for ex. After all, it is but corporations and image that rules the world in the globalisation age. If america literally tried to take over the world, they would fail miserably.

American ideology of life, economy, and values has penetrated every other nation in the world. And this is the reason that the soviet union broke up and the cold war ended. The people wanted the sports cars and american high life style that they watched in movies. So no one opposed the change. (I've spoken with many russians about this for after the break up, many physicists (my area of research) that couldn't make a living anymore in russia dispersed to universities all over the world)

America has her hands in the pockets of almost every other nation in the world. It tends to help other countries economies get better, for otherwise trade with those countries wouldn't be profitable. Buy oil from the arabs, then enchant them with the american lifestyle, then sell them loads of luxury stuff like limos and what not and profit in the end.

It was the united states that sent two warships on a defenseless japan in the early 1900s saying either start trading with us or we'll start bombing. This is still americas policy today to a degree. And an extremely successfull one at that.

I don't begrudge america anything. But a monopoly over the world imo is not a good thing. If it wasn't america and another country, it would be choosing one of the lesser evil. Now when there's a quarrel somewhere, everyone looks up to the big brother. If America helps one side, the other side will declare USA evil or vice versa. What they do is suppy almost everyone in the world with weapons. So it's not really an easy situation to be in but the us handles it pretty well.

I have nothing against americans. In fact, I have many extremely intelligent and insigtful american friends that i like very much. However, I should say that there is incredible brainwashing going on through media and other corporations dictating what is good, what is bad, who you are, how you must live your life etc. In the end, these are insigtful studies by sociologists and pays off towards a more productive obedient society. Don't get me wrong, every country does this but the extent in america as far as i've observed is incredible.

Well, these are random thoughts so if i'm mistaken or if you disagree, please feel free to correct/point out. I'm not bashing america or anything like that. America is not worse than any other country in the world. Whoever has the power, would be scolded because they hold the monopoly in anyway possible.


EDIT: Ha! Xaelifer that was a good read

[This message has been edited by Invoker (edited April 24, 2002).]

 

Gnolyn, last I checked, racisim and stereotyping aren't positive things. Stereotypes propagated, even though they are hurtful and have little basis in truth are extremely negative and unkind. I was making no direct insults, no personally hurtful statements, and I don't believe that I was "slamming" anyone. I have seen people make generalizations left, right, and center about the U.S., and the people who populate it. It's enough to invoke anyone's ire.

Please, go back and read my WHOLE post, not just the parts where you think I'm slamming. Stereotypes are oversimplified generalizations. Oversimplified because of lack of knowledge of a culture's true charactistics. A stereotype is indeed based in ignorance. It's far easier to lump a whole group, than to realize individual personalities. Everyone from the Middle East that lives here is facing it now, unfortunately. It is not better than bigotry just because people feel more comfortable joking about it. It is bigotry, in a more "palatable" form.

I just wonder at the fact that intelligent, seemingly sensitive, civilized people can say such things, without giving the reprocussions a second thought. There is no anger in that statement, just honest wonderment.

If you don't think broadcasting negative traits across a whole culture, based on a few examples is wrong, then there's nothing else I can say.

And still I bang my head against a wall...

 

Well, people hate America because America is powerful. "The Big Devil", etc. It's so much easier to get a scapegoat out of somebody with more power than you. America has MANY cons, but also MANY pros; I think I COULD live there, if I could put up with the grueling work hours. Personally, the only thing I currently think America should REALLY get rid of is Mr George W Bush. Kick him out and half the nation's problems will be solved.... (And this is someone who has been in America often and has relatives living there, so I call it an "educated opinion".)

 

Hmmm... being compared to a Ku Klux Klan member because I said the French were rude.

Damona, do you realise that by making such personal attacks, you are proving my argument about aggressive, rude Americans for me? I'd quit while I was ahead if I were you.

 

I tried to use the topic by listing reasons why I think people dislike America. I think it really comes down to the fact that it is because it is the most powerful country in the world (well put Invoker, Tiamat). All the other reasons listed here are just rationalisations that do not really matter. MAYBE there are resons to dislike America: Lazy Americans, racism, Dubya, Guns... but they are not the REAL reasons.

IMO the only reason really is that most of us inherently think that being too powerful isn't right - in a sense of Universal justice. So we make up stuff to justify our dislike.

Rambling aren't I? Still, I think I'm about right.

 

Oh, please. Damona said that statements like Sprite's, that stereotypes are grounded in truth, are dangerous. She gave an example of how dangerous they can be (KKK). And rather than Sprite defending her idea she's just jumping back to the whole "Oh, you Americans" idea.

Sprite may have pushed a guy down some stairs, but I've still got my money on Damona in a cat fight. Tune in to SP Live! Wednesday night at 10!

 

I agree with you Vuklodak - people dislike seeing "universal justice" being doled out by a single country, especially when the result of their interpretation of "justice" is so obviuosly, demonstrabley, self centred.

I have American relatives and friends, and so to suggest that I am mistaken in holding the believe that "America is big and bad" simply because I am submitting to stereotype is naive. I know plenty of lovely Americans (not least through these pages), I am intelligent enough to know the meaning of stereotypes.

I am also interested in world politics, and it is from this arena that a healthy dislike of American actions and behaviour has spread.

Americans themselves can be lovely - indeed they have an international reputation for being friendly and welcoming (a far better one than we Brits have, for example). However, they also have to (but consistantly fail to), individually, take collective responsibility for the actions of their state and government in the same way that they demand other nations do (when they act against American interests eg "Palestinians are responsible for their "Terrorist" government").