Bomb in London

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My heart goes out to the Uk. I know the anguish they must be going through.

 

My best mate is over there on his OE. Hope he's ok.

 

Rally, HB,
of course, the primary blame goes to the perpetrators. The truly sickening part is that four years after 911, except for the killing of some top leadership personnel of Al Quaeda, we're just where we started.

Despite Afghanistan and probably because of Iraq the problem is just as relevant and prevalent as ever.

Four years have mostly been wasted for some feel-good asskicking. Instead of tackling Al Quaeda, some folks decided to attack Iraq instead, oblivious to that Al Quaeda's brand of Islamism was far from defeated.
The soldiers and civillians in Iraq died in vain, just as the people of 911, Bali, Madrid and London and wherever else Al Quaeda struck died in vain.

That only fuels my anger about the politicians helping to conjure up what we face now. Needlessly.

That however doesn't in any way affect my pity for the dead and wounded of London's terrorist attacks, much more as they have cruelly been punished for other peoples mistakes and follies.

 

My condolences to everyone British and especially to the families and friends of the victims - both the dead and the many injured. I only hope that the perpetrators will be brought to justice and we will come out with the necessary wisdom to prevent other such tragedies from happening.

 

9/11, I sat and watched CNN in shock at what happened. Reading some of the information passed on in this thread, I get the same think. The difference is that the path to anger is much easier and quicker with every such atrocity.

For days after 9/11, all there was was shock, horror and mourning. Now, within a day, people are already discussing letting George W. send the troops in to (insert current target of wrath here) and shove some good old Americana so far up their hethen asses that they start spewing it out of their mouths. The problem is that it hasn't worked in Afghanistan, and it hasn't worked in Iraq, and it won't work in (insert current target of wrath here). What it will do is boost recruitment for both sides...

 

Danm! I've been wanting to login the past 36 hours but I was hopelessly swamped with work. My condolences to those who lost family, friends or any loved ones. I was looking forward to congratulating London for winning the bid for the 2012 Olympics. But such a joyous event has been eclipsed by a tragic one. I have a number of friends in London and I hope they are all well as I do not have their contact numbers.

Sigh. To add to my sadness, here at home our president might be resigning due to pressure from electoral dishonesty (i.e. cheating) allegations. Just what we need, more turmoil to further plunge our country into economic disaster.

 

The problem is that when such tragedy happens, they want someone to take the blame - anyone, and thats why Iraqis have to suffer for years to come. If this was from al-Qaeda or whoever, then this will give the green light to invade 'x' country in the Middle East.

I would suggest trying a different approach, and actually going after who is responsible, and actually punishing them (unlike the average 3 years in prison for IRA bombers).

 

As far as I am aware all of my friends are OK, though at least one got caught up in a cordoned zone by Edgeware without his mobile. My previous company sent out an email saying all staff were accounted for (I have friends working on the Kings Cross Underground refurbishment project), and my other friends have been in contact. My family in London don't use public transport so I expect they'll be fine.

If my meeting had been an hour earlier I might have been in the thick of it, as it is I ended up driving round London to get to it. Slightly ironic that it was going to be about security.

I'm pretty sure it won't change much, though I expect they'll be a lot less opposition to the identity card scheme than has been previously. (Safety over Freedom?)
The "stiff upper lip" image of the British still holds sway, if we were about to have a general election the Tories would have a better chance as they are even more hardline than Labour. Something like this will only make us more stubborn.

 

Oh please save it Ragusa. If Iraq hadn't been invaded, and the US would have moved 130k troops into Afghanistan to try to root out Al Queada you would be riling about that, and terrorist attacks like this one would be just as likely, if not more likely as for the most part terrorist attacks have been contained within the Middle East.

Radical militant Islamists are only looking for an excuse to launch their terror attacks. Remember, 9/11? We hadn't invaded Iraq or Afghanistan, and we had just finished 8 years of appeasement under Clinton, and yet they still launched the largest terrorist attack the US has ever suffered, even greater than the attack on Pearl Harbor. The whole use of Iraq as the scapegoat for why any terrorist attack occurs is at best intellectually dishonest.

Somehow I despite your statements I doubt that you would support the invasion of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.

Until we either concede everything to these militant Islamists (meaning convert to Islam), they will not be satisfied, and will find some reason to work themselves into a "holy" rage.

Just a reminder as to what this sect of Islam believes, a few of their favorite quotes from that peace loving book known as the Koran:

 

Wow, Gnarff, we agree once more!

I wish I knew what the solution was, tho'. Either we ignore them and they keep bombing civilians at random, or we take 'em out and they recruit more people to keep bombing civilians at random. It's a lose-lose situation

 

I agree with Darkwolf on the point that it's patently absurd after 9/11 to blame this on Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

Prayers for the families of the fallen.

 

Well Bion, Darkwolf,
To make my point clear: I don't 'blame it on invading Iraq'. I'm not as simple as that. The point is that Iraq was counterproductive and didn't contribute to the problem of fighting Al Quaeda and their ilk, thus, was a waste of lives, resources and money.

I'm not so very much alone with my assessment.

That's not some America-hating, leftist appeaser but Rumsfeld's Defense Policy Board speaking.

Iraq, with key events like the flattening of Fallujah, Abu Ghraib, and in a broader sense with icons like Gitmo, provided a powerful catalyst to Islamist terrorists and enormously aided their recruitment.

But while Islam certainly is an excuse and motivation, Al Quaeda types are thoroughly political animals, with political, not religious demands. They want U.S. withdrawal from the 'Muslim World', a term they interpret broadly.

Pope Benedict XVI had a point when he said they follow a "martyr ideology", which "turns God into an idol by which man worships his own will". They probably have lost the true path of Islam, but as long as they don't notice their fervor won't go away.

Some of the key issues for islamists is U.S. presence on the soil of islamic holy sites in Iraq (like Najaf) or Saudia Arabia. Of course, would the U.S. withdraw they would probably still be offended, as there is the problem of Israel and the other holy site - Jerusalem. So yes, we'd still have trouble.
But I can't see how invading Saudi Arabia would in any way help solve this dilemma, so yes, I wouldn't support it. It wouldn't solve the problem of the militants spread all over the world - we have enough trouble already with the crazed goons we have at our throat already, no need to make more enemies than absolutely neccesary.

The West cannot defeat the Islamist terrorists without friends in the Islamic World. That means compromising in some way. I'm still undecided how that can be done.

The key, however, is to deny the terrorists aid and comfort in their own societies. The U.S. invading countries only unites 'them' against 'us'. George Tierney had some interesting remarks on this in his piece 'Get Out, You Damned One'

...

 

Well, with the civil war, the postwar occupation actually worked (to a point that is; the north ended up caving to the south's desire to set up all sorts of race laws).

I totally agree with you that Iraq was sold to the US and the world in a shameful way, and that it would have been better, if AQ was the target, to concentrate more effort on Afghanistan.

But, even if that had been the case, we would still be in an uncomfortable position: with good conscience, can we really hold up Saddam's Iraq as an example of good ME government, simply because it "kept the militants in line?" If you had the choice, would you really make the call to put the Baathists back into power in Iraq? Isn't that both 1) much like the pre-9/11 conservative/Halliburton line of thinking (in spite of people's attempts to blame everything on Clintonian "softness"), which was more than happy to overlook horrible human rights abuses as long as business was humming; and 2) also condemning the children and poor of Iraq to the continued deprivations of UN sanctions?

BTW, I can see why it can seem a little harsh to immediately start with the politics after such a thing, but then again, the British press is already full of these kinds of discussions, from the "we shall never surrender" to the "this is what we get for occupying another country" variety. Again, my thoughts go out to the Brits; it takes a while for the city to seem normal again after such a thing...

 

Oh come on, as if it would have been impossible to bribe some baathist general to replace Saddam. That was the realist's plan all along. It isn't as if removing Saddam by means of an invasion was the only option. Far from it.

But no, the neo-cons wanted to completely redo Iraq from a scratch. They wanted nothing less but a 'NEW IRAQ (tm)'

No more filthy compromises with thugs like Saddam, instead redemption and moral purity through the power of U.S. arms. If you only blow up enough people you won't corrupt yourself anymore through dealing with filthy dictators

Well, *I* have always said the neo-cons are moon-howling lunatics. Just listen to them:

"Military conquest," enthused AEI's Joshua 'Powerpoint' Muravchik, "has often proved to be an effective means of implanting democracy." Michael 'let's invade Iran too, faster please' Ledeen went even further, declaring that "the best democracy program ever invented is the U.S. Army." "Peace in this world," Ledeen added, "only follows victory in war."

Yes, of course, to convert the Islamic world from their wrong ways to western democracy, and to teach them a 'civilised Islam', you only need enough laser-guided bombs ...

With dimwits like them at the center of power ... ... you well know where their silly talk brought the U.S.

 

March 11, one year ago; I was in Argentina, my girfriend living in Barcelona, Spain; suddenly I heard the news: bombing in trains in Spain, I couldn't get much information, I just knew that were in Spain, so I called my girfriend and her mobile didn't work, that sounded strange to me because I talked to her everyday at every hour I wanted, I called her mother and the same, I spent the most terrible 4 hours of my life not knowing if she was there in those trains untill she called me, I cried in relief...
I know what people must be feeling there in London, so my thoughts and feelings are for them.

 

The only positive thing is that London probably has more experiencing dealing with terrorism than any other major city in the World - the 'IRA' years taught officials a thing or two. Of course there's going to be panic when these things occur, but reports suggest our emergency services were quick and well co-oridinated which has undoubtedly saved lives. Sympathies to the families of those who have died or who are injured.

This is all so pointless. Terrorism has never worked against this country and it never will. Ask the IRA.

I'm sure Bob Geldof is cursing al' Queda...

It was odd watching the news last night. It was about 7pm and they were doing live reports from the scene of the explosions. It was so calm. Less than 12 hours after the attacks, the streets were cleared, the buses were running, people were walking about. In a very bizarre way, I thought it was wonderful.

The actions of our emergency services, the citizens of London and our politicians yesterday, I felt, once again, proud to be a citizen in this country. There is something truly unique about our culture, at least in the 'roll up the sleeves and get on with it' manner we deal with crisis.

Again, particular credit to the emergency services. The pay some of these people take home is appallingly low but their professionalism remains a credit to the country.

 

Good call, Barmy.

 

I don't see why we bother to have topic titles in here-- every single one seems to turn into an Iraq analysis.

[ July 08, 2005, 23:53: Message edited by: Spellbound ]

 

Ragusa, Muravchik and Ledeen are absolutely right. The use of the US military brought about democracy in Germany, Japan, and Italy. And talking will not work. Just look at the bs with the talks between Israel and the Palestinians. Only when one side is defeated (guess which one that will be) will there be a chance for peace.