Books (Besides Tolkien)

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Well, I have occassionally had the misfortune to encounter books that take a prurient interest in blood, gore, and sexual violence. I don't get that impression from this series. Mr. Martin certainly doesn't glorify violence, like you see in many books, but neither does he sanitize it. Perhaps because I've read as much or more historical material as fantasy, I'm looking at it differently.

aloha
Vormaerin

 

When you are interested in good stories and also a bit in religion, read the books of Frank E. Peretti. He has some great books, exciting adventures, combined with some religion, for a big part the influence of Angels and Demons... powers we can't see.

 

I'm about to read "Game of Thrones" so I'll let you know what I think of the sexual/violent themes of the book. I've already dropped Lackey due to her obsession with sex, particularly homosexuality. Jordan annoys me with his constant use of nudity, but I can't drop him.

 

This is kind of to second some of the above recommendations, but my suggestions are:
Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time,
David Eddings' Belgariad et al (the prequels are really good as well, but a bit heavy going),
Frank Peretti's This Present Darkness/Piercing the Darkness.

[This message has been edited by Masher (edited November 03, 2001).]

 

Thanks pholk. I may also do the only Dostoevsky book i have not done yet. The possed. But i will get to these. It's always a long winter!

 

I don't think anyone can understand Anna Karenina unless they have been married -- I hope they don't require it in an English class! War and Peace gets a bad rap -- it's a *classic* and therefore boring, right? But no! Action-packed, but no raping or nipple slicing.

Really! Why would anyone *want* to read that? I can see how these images of sexual violence might be comforting if you were a sixteen-year-old guy who can't get laid and thus resents this power every woman has over you. The guy at the comic book store was telling me a scene in "Women": the woman who has manipulated the hero until now is bound in chains, and attempts to seduce the hero into untying her -- he rapes her instead. The comic book store guy thought I --and his girlfriend-- should see that that scene was about the hero striking back against mind-control. With whatever weapon was handy.

...OK, but surely you guys know that since we are the sum of our experiences, taking in all this hatred can't be good for you. The more you indulge this vicarious hatred of women, the more you can't relate to the actual women you know, the less likely you are to get laid. Isn't that counterproductive? Read Earthsea or Phillip K Dick instead. Or Jane Austen -- just carrying that one around increases your chances of sex with a real woman an estimated 40%.

 

Anna K in my opinion is Tolstoy's take on women and mens relationships. Its ok. I prefer more "action" oriented works, but i am reading it to become a more mentally affluent person.
Yes, the male accumation of hate is always a problem in our relations, but women have the same ability and are also limited by it. There is no imediate solution to the "human limiting condition", we simply have to be aware of what we do. That in itsself we push us back to the Roman heyday of wisdom. (I use Rome as only a apex to western wisdom, Islamic heyday of the tenth century is just as wonderous to look at, as well as the hindus and buddists of the east.)

 

I like "The Devils" (its sometimes translated as "The Possessed") the most of all Dostoyevsky's novels. It doesn't pound on one hapless protagonist quite as much as "The Idiot" or "Crime and Punishment". Plenty of punishment for everyone in that book (and richly deserved, too!!!).

Aloha
Vormaerin

 

Ouch, methylviolet, I'm a sixteen-year-old guy who can't get laid (due to religious issues) and thus resents the power every woman has over me... j/k. But I am 16 and I think I speak for 16-year-old guy all over the world when I say that by 16, I think men hold the power over women. I do agree that sex scenes in fantasy series or any other genre are pointless. I think it is simply a way to express the writer's suffering for his/her lack of sex. Then again, it IS a 'FANTASY' genre...

 

Methylviolet,
I agree with your statement:

Why would anyone *want* to read that?

That is my feeling exactly. I think singling out the 16 year old guys is kind of harsh though. Anyone who finds rape entertaining is disturbed IMO.

And RythmicBarbarian, your comment that "men hold the power over women" is interesting but since you don't define "power" I can't agree with you. In many places, men may subjugate women, but this is not what I think of as power, it is weakness. When you have had more experience with women (or one woman, depending on your religious views) you will understand the power that women have. Take the time to learn this, because in a (male/female) relationship, both parties have power and it can be used for mutual gain/satisfaction or (as in many cases) to tear each other apart.

On the topic:

Philip K. Dick (thanks for reminding me Methylviolet) is awesome. Great storytelling with vision.

 

You should really read the Wheel of Time books. The best ever made, even better than Lord of the Rings. PLEASE don't kill me

 

How many Wheel of Time books are there?

 

Thanks Tal. Is it all one continuing story or is it a series of adventures in a particular universe?

 

going back to the violence/rape in books issue several posts up...

Western society has always amused me for one reason: violence is portrayed (by the media/tv/books/movies, etc) as acceptable, but sex is considered evil. Some TV shows have people die by the dozens, but if they contemplated including sex, they wouldn't be allowed on the air.

a book including scenes of rape was described as repugnant in this thread, and I agree...but don't you think killing is a little worse? If not, why? Just curious, no offense intended.

also, if you want to read some truly violent stories, go get the Hammer's Slammers books by David Drake. with the exception of The Sharp End, they are 60-90% violence.

 

im reading the icewind dale trilogy - i figured i might as well find out how this drizzt dourden came into fame

 

I'm on Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy right now.. and spell his name right! Do'Urden

 

Amaster, to attempt to answer your question:

Rape and sex are different. If you don't understand that then maybe you should seek help.
I have no problem with sex in books or on TV. I agree that the US is completely backwards in portraying violence in movies and TV but avoiding/censoring sex. It has never made any sense to me.
As far as killing. I have described my feelings about (and experience with) killing elsewhere on these boards. It is difficult for me to even type about so I don't bring it up frequently.
The difference that I see between killing and raping in a fantasy book that is essentially about war is this: Killing is part of the story, when characters die, the plot evolves. Without it, you won't have a story about a war. Rape (while real and part of many wars) does little (or nothing) to advance the plot, at least in the case of Game of Thrones. It is completely gratuitous/prurient.
When I read a fantasy book about war, I brace myself, expecting there to be killing. I don't expect it to be particularly graphic or vicious. I don't expect to read about rape. Rape can be part of a story and can be used in a way that helps define characters and is not gratuitous. I have read many short stories (especially in the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction) where themes of sexual violence are explored. But that is essentially what the story is about. I have no problem with this.
I believe that Martins use of sexual violence in Game of Thrones was gratuitous and in the end made the book less enjoyable.
That is why I brought it up in the first place. I never told anyone not to read the book (it is an excellant story, aside from the wallowing in violence). I just wanted to warn people who wish to read it to be prepared. I wish someone had warned me.

 

Is this Fantasy only books ?
If not then at this current moment I am reading the Sharpe series by Bernard Cornwell. 6 books in so far.
And I'm going back to reading Anne Rice's vampire series as I just noticed 2 new books , in the series, on sale.