Can't Wear And Display the American Flag on 5/5? BS!

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We should get rid of all flags and other symbols for the tribalistic division of the human race.

 

Why? So we can all be mindless robots with no emotion?

 

I totally agree with you on that point, but I guess the only way for humankind to unite under one flag would be the threat of an extraterrestrial power.

 

We would also have to all be dyed purple with green hair and wear contacts that give us cat eyes. Banish all clothing as well, have a universal language and force everyone to a weight within a standard range. Even then we'll find a way to find bias.

On a separate note: Does it fall within freedom of speech to burn a flag someone is wearing?

 

I am afraid you are correct there T2 but for me all nationflags have very negative connotations and flagwaving is something I find deeply unsettling.

BoV, I would say that flags have helped create some of the biggest mobs of mindless drones ever. Not emotionless but the only emotion they have had has been hate.

 

I find the whole thing stupid. Obviously you should be able to wear your country's flag if you want to. I find the whole notion of wearing flags bizarre though. It's hard to see what the boys were up to if they weren't trying to stir trouble. It was hardly in the spirit of the day.

They can create a strong sense of community as well though. I find my national flag has negative connotations but I'm looking forward to seeing the county colours flying over the summer when our championship get underway.

 

That particular term is supposed to have a negative connotation. Just because someone displays a flag, does not make him a "flagwaver." Flagwaving is a manipulative action designed to craft a range of emotional reponses within a target group or even larger masses of citizens. Flags are attached to deeply rooted archetypes within the unconscious and not only is the flag itself an archetype, but it is covered with archetypes, in forms, symbols and colors that are supposed to activate those deeply latent archetypes within the unconscious. It can craft a full range of emotion, not just "hate."

A flag is a two edged sword: Directly after 9/11 the vast display of flags helped to create a sense of national healing and unity among Americans. However, in the post 9/11 America it has, in some instances, become a manipulative tool for mindless nationalism and cynical, political gain. And that, yes, is "flagwaving."

 

This is the problem with some (I guess many, but I don't know) of the current load of immigrants. They haven't come here to become Americans. They've come here to make American money and then go home (home not being the US). That means there's no reason to learn the language, no reason to learn the history, and no reason to respect the traditions, all unless it helps them earn money. This doesn't just go for Mexican immigrants, either. Down at the beach, most of the workers each summer are immigrants from eastern Europe. The only thing keeping most of them from the same problem is that they are mostly respectful and courteous by upbringing (and the few that aren't are just as bad as what Arizona is complaining about). I'm sure NY, California, and other over-seas immigration hotspots are seeing the same trend recently. 'New opportunity' no longer means a new life, just a stint.

Only if the 'someone' is you.

 

I don't see a major problem with short term immigrants just going over to make money. They're brought in to fulfill a role in the economy and it's a two way process. In the long term it can create very positive goodwill for the US abroad when there's so many who have good memories of the place. The US also has a great track record of bringing in very skilled people who really add to society, much more so than many other countries.

I don't think it's always realistic to expect immigrants to automatically regard their new home as their 'first' country. They'll probably always have a fondness for home. As long as they play by the rules of their new home I don't see a problem.

 

There's no inherrant problem with people coming here temporarily, but it is a different type of immigrant with different concerns. Previously, when most of our immigrants were coming to make a new life, and those that weren't were mostly professionals, there didn't need to be that much concern with the types of immigrants. Those coming to stay will invest in their local community, while those only here temporarily have reputations to maintain. These days, though, the demographics have changed and those here temporarily are much more likely to be basic laborers. If they're respectful of laws and culture, courteous, etc. there's nothing wrong with that. Most of the Europeans I worked with down at the beach were wonderful people, eager to practice english, eager to learn the culture, and very polite. Unfortunately, there's no guarantee that they all will be. They have no reputation to maintain, no local community to invest in, and those who enter illegally don't even have a record with the State if they want to come back. It's become a much riskier proposition, which means we need tighter control.

 

Not sure about what you mean by "previously" but looking back at history gives a different picture. Ever heard of the Chinese Exclusion Act? It's just one example out of many. The "type" of immigrants was always a concern.

 

I didn't say there wasn't, just there didn't need to be.

 

That would imply that the flag was not (ab)used for such purposes in the USA before 9/11. Is that really the case? I'd say using patriotic rhetoric and hyping national identity for political gain is a much older trick than that, in the US and elsewhere.

 

Remember the Alamo.

 

I did not interperet CtR's comments to mean that 9/11 was the only time an even has been used for to raise nationalistic fervor. I assumed he picked it because it was an example of how the flag was used both positively (immediately after the event) and negatively (for political gain). That 9/11 is still a relatively recent event (in that nearly everyone is old enough to remember it) certainly helped though.