Children used in pro-gay indoctrination

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What makes you think he didn't?

The kid singing it obviously isn't a moron. He understands what he's implying and the very nature of the relationship mentioned.

His life or no, his song or no, the whole thing is about promoting tolerance of children with homosexual parents. None of the children there have been strongarmed into singing about it and if they have then its illegal, that's called slavery.

Some kid has fag dads. He's happy with it. His fathers love him. He doesn't appear to have been abused as a child, they feed him well, I can't comment on his level of intelligence but I imagine he isn't an imbicile... in the end unless you can point out something wrong with the child then I can't see there being any negative effects of having homosexual parents.

 

What should they do? Hide the reality and be ashamed of their fathers? And what should gay people do? Should they hide in their homes so we shouldn't see them and know what they are? If freedom of speech is speaking if majority of people agrees with you, not speaking and not getting seen if your ideas are seen as "sick" by majority of people, religion,... our country is one of the most free countries in this world.

 

Something that needs to be asked, do the kids on the stage really "have two fathers" or are they ringers just used to act out the song. The other question I have is why 5 year olds (aprox) asked to sing along like it was audience participation night if it was just a kid singing about his life instead of indoctrination as seems to be intended?

 

Wow, that's the most rational and sensible thing I have ever read from Ragusa!

 

Actually the kids say "He has two fathers" they're not singing about themselves they're singing about him.

 

Oh dear. Gays are fine Chev, meet some. I expected better from you, me old mucka! This is the kind of thing I'd expect from Gnarff.

 

you are aware the the normal family dosn't excist right?

33%of all Danish children are raised in families with one parrent do to divorses, then we have the orphans, does who are raised, with one parent do to death etc.
these people dont have the normal father/mother relation in thier upbringen, yet turn out "normal". so why is it that children raised by two parents of the same sex shouldn't? thier is no statistic or scientific evidence that shows us children raised by gay couples turn out worse (or better) then other children.

Secondly, you seem to suffer from the religius blindspot, the gay people does nothing in their promovation of thier lifestil, that christianity havent done and still does.

 

I'd just like to point out that femininity and masculinity aren't clear-cut cases with heterosexuals either. They're defined greatly by the contemporary culture. Making such an ambiguous thing sick is rather problematic.

I do agree that there is a line how far you can go acting a certain way without the risk of making yourself look silly, but there's a lot of silly people and their silliness has little or nothing to do with their sexuality.

To some extent these silly people are required to test the rules of conformity. Otherwise the society would go stagnant.

I'm sure you disagree whether homosexuals are these kind of people that for their part help bring culture and society forward. It is arguable as much as almost anything, especially on religiuous basis.

I don't like using kids for propaganda purposes, if the purpose is something that doesn't help children.

Tolerance for cultural and subcultural differences is a valuable thing. This doesn't mean that you should accept everything however. I'm not that much for rights of homosexuals, but I'm with Equester here, that there isn't such a thing as 'normal parents' or a 'normal family'.

What if a whole set cultural beliefs are bent on making people unhappy? Would that be considered as normal? I think it would. There's a lot of things I'd like to change about beliefs concerning sexuality and gender issues, beliefs that have no proper basis on anything, things that bring too much unnecessary suffering...

[ December 23, 2006, 13:09: Message edited by: Iku-Turso ]

 

I certainly think that it's strange that a kid would feel the need to sing about having two fathers and that everyone else there wants to sing about it too. It does sound like indoctrination of sorts (I con't imagine that they weren't put up to it by an adult with an agenda), and indoctrination - be it for something that I agree with or not - is a big put-off for me.

That aside - I find the comments by chev to be waaaay over the top and pretty disgusting. I would love to see your reasoning for why homosexuality is a 'sick idea', but I suspect that you're not actually able to give me anything that doesn't add up to 'God said so'.

And yes; 'God said so' is an intellectually bankrupt arguement, and also a morally bankrupt one seeing what other things 'God' has said. But hey - I guess rational thinking was never a prerequisit for bigotry anyway...

 

I might get banned or warned for this and it might be construed as a personal attack (but really only if one perceives that to be what one is accused of being as something bad). I am starting to be more and more suspicious that Chev is a complete closet case homosexual. Your obsession with homosexuality and sex in general isnt healthy man. I think you would feel a lot better if you shook of the chains you have bound yourself with and let the real chev out and not the 14th century inquisitor your society and upbringing has forced you to become.

Just let it out mate, it cant be healthy to keep it bottled up like this even if your over-compensating on these boards is on a higher level than even a 65 year old man with a small penis driving a red Ferrari and thus slightly entertaining at times you have shown yourself to be a pretty decent fellow in general and I think in the long run you would feel better if you stopped fighting it and embraced what you truly seem to be.

 

I will remember this thread forever.

 

Interesting issue. The way I see it, the child singing is more an emotional support for the other children that are in his same situation. It would be very difficult for children brought up in a homosexual family, even if it is extremely loving and nurturing, because there will always be a large group of people who oppose.

Generally the childrens peers can be the hardest on them because children can be very mean. Compassion and respect are behaviors that develop later.

Having children with similar situations in a community gathering and hearing another child voicing their own feeling in song should be very therapeutic.

 

Here are 67 research abstracts from the American Psychological Association regarding gay and lesbian parenting. Read up. (This Slate article is where I got the prior ink.)

 

Can we post psychoanalysis of ourselves?

Maybe in Whatnots - dmc

[ December 24, 2006, 02:43: Message edited by: dmc ]

 

True, ad hominem does nothing to further one's arguments.
And this is NOT the first time Chev has expressed his opinion on homosexuality, so don't be acting all surprised. So be it; it's his opinion and even though I disagree with it, it's just as eligible for expression as any other - more power to him!

That said, now it's time to wade into the cut-and-thrust of the debate itself. *rubs hands eagerly*

Hear-hear; forcing children to learn and sing "Onward Christan soldiers/ Marching as to war" is pretty reprehensible to me - I've always wondered about the underlying message of that hymm; start a crusade against other religions? Deny them their beliefs and indoctrinate them with yours?

Hmmmm, where are you taking this quote from? It's not exactly an official rule of grammar, but *I* tend to take double quotes as an actual quotation of another person, while single quotes signify paraphrasing or 'putting words in someone's mouth'. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding this...

Rebuttal? Child-'raising' behaviour of Patsy Ramsey.

linky

And considering she died at the age of six-and-a-half, she was quite an ambitious and determined pre-schooler.

All that furor about her death, and no one thought about charging her mother for the child abuse and exploitation (can you say "living Barbie doll"?) she suffered when alive... feh.

My point being that ALL sorts of groups exploit all sorts of people for all sorts of motives and reasons.

 

I'm still wondering if the child singing on stage has two fathers and why 5yr olds are asked to sing back if the performance was/is not intended as "indoctrination". If it was a young boy signing about HIS lifestyle it is kind of a different light on what happened even though the audience seems young to understand the details of what is being presented. Does the young boy signing have two fathers or is he a ringer and thus making this indoctrination of 5yr old kids, not sharing of experience that has been lived.

It is useless to try to bring up all kinds of other exploition to ask why someone objects to this particular occurrence as this was the subject brought up. I would like to believe that a group as educated and young (not a put down, you guys are the owners of the next 30 years or so) would offer opinions and question why this was done. I am very interested still in what you think and willing to be convinced and educated further in opinions from all over. Off topic at the end, sorry DMC and all

 

The thing is, Old One, it must be compared to other circumstances where children sing. The Children's choir at a Catholic Church is a prime example of children being told to sing about something they probably don't understand.

If you look you'll see that the entire audience isn't asked to participate and that the chorus singers are probably from some school choir or something and are playing the role of an instrument to simply make the song sound better. Children are used in choruses all over the world and not just for promoting certain ideals. The corporate music world uses children singers as backups for certain songs and nobody bats an eyelid. The only reason why this event has incurred a reaction is that Christians feel that children should be taught Christian morals _only_, in reality this isn't an objection to the use of children in a song, its an objection to children being taught that homosexuality is okay. The exact same of objection could be turned around and pointed at children being taught religion by those who believe that children shouldn't be indoctrinated at such a young age.

I see a song promoting acceptance and countering baseless fears of homosexual parents. Others see child slavery and brainwashing.

 

@Abomination
Let my try again, somehow I blew away my finished post and am posting again.

I think we are seeing the same thing from two different views. I looked at the performance again and saw something that I missed first go around, the boy has two dads and is singing what he feels. I missed it due to not having broadband and missed that little segment somehow. It takes a lot to catch everything and this is my only excuse. The boy has a right to act/sing/talk his feelings about his fathers. I believe in freedom of speech and support it. I do not agree an extra father can replace a mother, or that two mothers can replace a father and would not teach my children/grandchildren that but I would not try to shut the boy up or to take his right to speak out.
If the forum of his performance is not a public school or mandatory for children more power to him.
If he is at a public school and kids are made to attend it is wrong! This is parental rights.
I do not think this is the case as the kids were asked if they were there with M/F or if they had two fathers. The parents must have known what the performance was and made the decision to take the kids. That is their right.
I find myself in the strange poisition of agreeing with someone having the oposite opinion as myself. The performer has a right to his performance, and it is indoctrinition in a view I must disagree with!

 

BA: I considermyself fortunate that I don't find that stuff on my own.

I have to agree with both sides on this. Ragusa is right that children ought be protected from abusive and negligent situations, but I don't see having gay parents as better. Parents have an obligation to teach proper morals to their children, and morally I object to Homosexuality (see Homosexuality and Religion 1 and 2). Teaching them that certain deviant behaviours are normal can be just as warping on young minds as abusive or negligent homes. The Ideal solution is to have good heterosexual couples that can take in such children...

I'd like to think that Dragonfly is right about the sing-along part in the chorus, and that the other children were rallying around a child from a different backgroung or familial situation (promoting tolerance of the child while minimizing commentary on the father(s) of the child). ostracizing a child is wrong, and the child has the same right to support as a child who has lost a parent to an untimely death or had their parents divorce.

I do Agree with Old One, that children should not be forced to participate in such sing-alongs, just as children in a church situation are not dragged from the family home to sing for a church group, but participate with the consent of their parents, and usually of their own free will.

I think that it has to be handled carefully that the focus be on the child, not the fact that he has two gay dads. Using that to promote the idea that homosexuality is okay is objectionable.