Civ IV

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One more thing - when things like Monuments and Monastaries become obsolete, do you lose all effects of them, or do you continue to earn at least the culture bonus? I'm not a particularly big fan of Monasteries either, and I won't build more than one of any type. I once screwed up a game where I was going for a cultural victory because I forgot to build any monastaries prior to getting the Scientific Method, and I couldn't spread any religions to get enough temples to get cathedrals.

 

In my experience when buildings become obsolete you don't benefit from them anymore. I've never noticed that we retained a culture bonus.

The science bonus from Monasteries is quite nice (before getting Scientific Method).

I don't know if delaying getting some techs to make the usefulness of your buildings (especially wonders) last longer is a viable strategy. I've been thinking about it but I've never actually tried it. I guess the main drawback would be not taking advantage of the new techs as soon as you can get them. Astronomy for instance is just too useful when dealing with civs on other continents.

 

I think it depends on the game conditions. If you have aggressive neighbors on your continent, astronomy may not be as necessary. However, it would initially appear that not accessing those techs could only be done for a short while. Aside from the possibility of another civ getting the tech, you wouldn't just be delaying getting Astronomy and the Scientific Method, but also everything that comes AFTER them, including Electricity. So perhaps that's not such a good strategy.

 

You're probably right. I can only see culture as a possible exception and I'm not that convinced it would work out that well either.

 

The primary purpose of a monument is to get your new cities' BFCs up to full size as quickly as possible (i.e. to get that first culture expansion).

If you remember that the real key to success at the higher levels is attention to minute details in the first 100 turns or so, you'll realise that if your new city has key resources in the outer tiles of the BFC, and you don't have any other way of expanding your borders early on, then chopping out a monument in that city will more than pay for itself.

The culture value of a monument is inconsequential for the purposes of a culture victory, or even really for crowding out an enemy (better to just build 3 axes and go and knock over his city for real).

Monuments are all about accessing all your city's tiles as quickly as possible to get you new city firing on all cylinders. It would then follow that if all the good tiles were in the first 8 tiles of the BFC then a monument would be of less use and you could just wait for a religion or a library to get a later border expansion.

It would also then follow that the point of Stonehenge is if you think you have a quite a few cities that would need Monuments, so the effort of building Stonehenge outweighs the cost of the monuments. The other reason for Stonehenge would be if your short term strategy requires the generation of an early Great Prophet (e.g. to bulb Theology for you)

 

Just had the most frustrating game over ever . Played with Cyrus just to see how many GG's and promotions I would get in a war game. The first part, cleaning my own continent, was relatively easy: Dutch went down with a warrior rush and Russians didn't bother much either. War(s) with Egyptians, however, took about 300 years + about the same time to recover from the economic crisis caused by overexpansion. I think I had 5 generals at this point, with lots of level 6-7 units.

I found out that there were only 2 other civs left in a distant continent: very strong Holy Roman Empire and somewhat weaker Romans. At 1650 AD my army was about as strong as Holy Romans, so I spent almost 200 years just researching military techs and building units. As soon as I had enough infantry, artillery and navy, it was time for D-Day. I had about 80 units, mostly infantry, cavalry and artillery with some last minute SAM-infantry and machine guns. The war with Holy Romans was the biggest I've ever had (normal map). Charlemagne made huge land counterattacks with about 40-50 units, throwing everything he had against me. The war went well: I took 3 of their cities, reinforcements arrived and I had 7 generals, although one was KIA. Then Charlemagne pulled out a miracle religious victory-> Power Word: Exit to desktop.

 

You really have to play very close attention that religious victory thing, especially when you get down to only two Civs left, because if they like each other, and you don't have much of the AP religion (because it started on a distant continent) then you're toast.

It's easy to stop if you're paying attention:
- don't kill off the AP owner's worst enemy
- bribe the other AI into war with the AP owner
- spread the AP religion throughout your cities (tricky if you're post Sci Meth because it means revolting to Org Rel to build missionaries).
- go after the AP owner first

 

The voting wasn't very fair : the only choices for diplomatic victory were Charlemagne or to abstain, which I did along with Augustus (he certainly wasn't a friend of Charlemagne). Charlemagne voted for himself, had enough votes and won. The few votes I had came from the recently conquered Holy Roman cities, since buddhism hadn't spread to my continent. Would the same thing have happened if I had razed those cities instead of capturing them?

I must admit that I totally had forgot the AP. In retrospective, I should have made it obsolete with Mass Media before attacking.

 

If you had no votes at all, then his religious victory would not have been possible. To win, everyone needs to have a vote, but you can't vote yourself in all by yourself. Hence the danger of leaving one big enemy (with the AP), plus his little friend, and you with 1 or 2 cities that have the AP religion.

 

I noticed this accidently in one of my games. I was going for a religious victory deliberately, I had my state religion of confucianism, and seeing as how I had conquered everyone else on my continent by the time I got that religion, I was the only one with Confucianism. So I had something like 512 out of the 516 total votes, but I was not allowed to win a religious victory. Evidently, you need to have at least one other civ to vote for you.

 

One leader can win just with his own votes, but I think the religion in question has to be influental enough before religious victory is possible.

 

It needs to exist in all civs.

 

It needs to exist in all Civs, plus you can't vote yourself in all by yourself, unless you exploit a loophole in the program and switch state religions whilst the vote is being counted, but that's cheating.

 

Was thinking about this, HB - are Monuments the best way for early BFC growth? It takes a good number of valuable rounds to build Stonehedge and Monuments. Would religions be a better way of spreading Culture?

I'm asking because I normally play Creative civs because I like to block off good resources early on, but I'd like to experiment (esp. with Charlemagne, whose Rathaus and Imperialistic traits seems to encourage fast expansion).

 

Deathmage - depends on how quickly you need that initial BFC growth and whether or not you even have a religion at that point in the game. If there's nothing in the outer ring then there's no hurry.

 

If you don't have a religion or a monument your cities may not be producing enough culture to expand their borders for a very long time. I remember a game long ago in which I rushed with Praetorians (beelined for Iron Working and skipped monuments altogether), in that game my cities were stuck to the original tiles for a very long time.

Building culture faster doesn't seem to matter that much when you're rushing but it can make a difference nonetheless because having a larger empire with the same number of cities doesn't hurt (if you can afford the religion or the monuments). Of course, having a non Protective neighbour build up Stonehenge is even better.

 

Started a new game today with Elizabeth, Noble, Continents. Intend to try a Cultural victory. I've Cultural victoried a few times in the past, but never through initial planning - it's always a case of last-minute calculation, combined with frantic Wonder building.

London is a good balanced location, not much farm area though because there's only a lake and no rivers. Soon found Marble to the south and founded a city there (York). Got Parthenon through chopping lots of forests, and got my first Great Artist very quickly (+150% GP is phenomenal). I decided to save him - that way I can use him to Culture bomb when the time truly arises.

My neighbours were Willem and Zara Yaqob. All the early religions seemed to have been founded elsewhere, and Willem got Confusicianism, which he proceeded to spread to Zara. I forgot to Open Borders with him, so he didn't get me, but converted me soon after.

Tech-wise, I beelined to Literature almost to the exclusion of all else, and then got a free Great Artist for Music as well. I was also able to build the Sistine Chapel unchallenged, with the help of a Golden Age (from a Great Scientist).

We're on 1120 AD, and the game is going smoothly. I have three Great Artists ready to go. Zara is pleasant when he's got your religion and Willem isn't very aggressive.

Apart from the lategame wonders (Eiffel Tower, Rock and Roll), what others are beneficial for me? Since I have the Sistine Chapel, it would be to my advantage to get as many free specialists as possible...

 

Nice work Deathmage. My comments:
- you want to do anything that increases the number of Great Artists (you're aiming to get at least 12). I hope you have National Epic in your highest food city so that city can pump Artists continually.
- I wouldn't worry about any late game wonders. You're should be close to winning by then.
- More important to get the three religions spread throughout your cities so you can build the three shrines in your culture cities.
- Don't be afraid to turn your science down to zero (and your Culture up as high as possible) once you've got Liberalism for Free Speech. You don't really need any more techs after that, unless you really really want Rifling for Redcoats.

 

Thanks for your advice. I'm on 1800s right now, and a summary of what has happened:

- Went for Liberalism and ramped Culture up to 80% (most I can support). Picked my 3 main cities and built necessary buildings (Cathedrals; Hermitage etc). All is going well: London has ~20K, and the others have ~10K.
- I picked my National Epic at the wrong city, but now I see the might of the GP farm. Running Pacifism.
- I only have 5 cities - I should have went for six so I can build multiple Cathedrals etc. But then Zara's city flipped - and it's the holy city of Islam, no less! Started constructing monastery so I can spread the religion to my cities.
- My island is a happy Confucianism nation - at least, it was before Willem switched to Free Religion. Zara is still pleased at me with +8 alone from religion though.
- I began to make contact with the other civs through no effort of my own. First game Bismarck, the leader of his continent, and then Sitting Bull (Bismarck's vassal), then Isabella, then Chief Monty. They had a Buddhist island with Isabella as the founder.
- I've only heard rumours about Isabella's legendary aggression - and indeed, this time I suffered for it. She decided to attack me about 10 turns after meeting me and launched a massive naval invasion, loaded with Knights and Trebuchet. My most advanced defenders at that time were Crossbowmen - I didn't even have Longbow! In retrospect it probably would have been better if I went for Redcoats.
- Bella took two of my northern cities by the coast, and then came down and started besieging one of my three cultural cities. At that point I reloaded.

I think this time I'll try to keep her appeased with presents. Switching religions is probably a poor idea, though, as Zara is my fiercely religious neighbour and IIRC he could get pretty aggressive too. Maybe I should go Free Religion?

EDIT: more point:

- I'm stuck three turns before Isabella attacks. I can research Feudalism in two turns, but how do I willingly become vassal of another?
- What's the best use (in my case) for a Great Scientist? I've got a few of them lying around as well as a Great Spy.

 

Since you really don't need new techs, bulbing or academy are useless in this case. I'd go for Golden Age(s), presuming that you haven't had them yet. Use it to get some cash and upgrade your units if possible. The final part in culture game can be very difficult, unless you have a strong defensive army. Navy is also a good investment .