Consequences

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Yes, it is, but God keeps reminding me of why I became a Christian. I've never heard such a calling nor felt such a thirst for anything else.

 

That's wonderful - I'm so happy for you! Truthfully, I feel the same way about my conversion to Judaism.

 

Harbs, I'm an Aussie, and you're a Kiwi. That should be evidence enough for you.

Well, that makes a great deal more sense to me. I still think it's wise to retain a certain amount of reflexivity in such matters, though.

 

Oh man, how long will I have to wait? That's not fair. Why has He spoken to you already, but not me?

 

Because he simply doesnt' like you HB. He wants you to rot in hell for not worshipping him... that's how it goes right? Worship God or rot in hell?

 

And we are taught when to leave the discussion--usually when there is an attempt to disengage or when those in authority (for example, the home-owner) tell us that our presence or discussion is not wanted. I feel comfortable continuing here because the Mods aren't telling me to stop. If the rules suddenly forbade the discussion of religion, then I'd have to silently watch and contribute to other topics.

Actually there are discrepencies between the wording of various translations of the Bible, but for the most part, the story is the same. Likewise if you and I watch the same movie, there may be differences in the words we choose to report on the story, but ultimately we saw the same movie...

I'm only plugging the textbooks I recommend. I either don't know or don't agree with some of the other textbooks out there.

Wars against those that would try to conquer the people of Israel and subjugate them and perhaps put an end to the worship of the Lord. Mass killing of those who are guilty of grevious sins that under the laws of Israel would otherwise be punishable by death or those who would seek to destroy Israel if given the chance...

Ultimately, we all earn out place in the afterlife, but what that place is, we can't be sure. I can't prove to you that I'll be in the Kingdom of God in Eternity, but I believe that I will be.

I believe that when He returns, all will know Him. There will be no mistaking when he truly returns, and every knee shall bow and every tongue will acknowledge Him as our Saviour.

Actually He speaks to us all, but do we recognize His voice and his words?

 

@HB:
He's been speaking to you this whole time, you just weren't listening.

@Gnarff:
Actually, the only times God tells the Israelites to totally wipe out a people is when they have engaged in child sacrifices. He seems to really take issue with that one.
As for His second coming, it'll be a little late at that point. Better late than never doesn't quite cut it, here, either.

 

@Montresor: Once again, as was discussed in the "Premarital Sex" thread, it's inappropriate to judge the actions of history by the standards of the present. Is this what was commonly done to those who lost a war AT THE TIME? Also, if you read back a bit in the chapter you find that all God has to say is "Avenge the Israelite people on the Midianites" [Moses' father-in-law was a Midianite priest, by the way]. Exactly how that order is carried out seems to me to be purely up to Moses.

 

Wait a second here. I was aware that members of the Mormon faith were expected to go out and attempt to convert at some point in their lives, usually as teens or young adults. Are you saying even adult members of the faith are expected to go door-to-door spreading the Word?

 

@Montresor:
The passage in question refers to the Israelites wiping out a SERIOUS THREAT to their security. If they had let the boys live, or pregnant women, or mothers, they would have a whole new generation of people rearing to wipe them out. The young women in those days were not expected to seek revenge. Also, the women they took had full rights of any wife in Israel. They weren't sex slaves, they weren't even slaves. They were taken in because there was no reason to kill them and leaving them on their own was a death sentence.
If you stop and think about it, God is showing mercy here, this is no more an attrocity than modern Israel wiping out all the Muslim and Palestinian extremists in and around Israel. In those days, extremists didn't hide in peaceful populations like they do today, they led or joined tribes of extremists and raised their sons to follow them.
If you're going to make absolute claims like that, you can at least try to know what you're talking about before you do so.

 

Well, nice way to put all the blame for poor communication on the receiver. Communication is a two-way thing. If a message doesn't get through then some of the blame must lie with the sender as well.

 

I've always though an infinite being like God can't be understood through finite means.

Since a finite being can only understand a part of an infinite being, I've always found it most useful to try to use your own experience, rather then another's to understand God, as you're more likely to understand the aspects that mesh with your own limits.

If I'm into poverty prevention, the aspects of God as a judge and lawman probably aren't the aspects of god I'm going to truly understand. However the aspect of God as the Utopianist and Volunteer I can understand quite well.

 

From an American Indian prayer:

 

That is a special opportunity offered to men aged around 19 years to go out for 2 years as full time missinoaries. This is extended to Women at age 21 for a year and a half as well. After that time, they return home and resume normal lives.

 

Telling the Hebrews to wipe out an entire population, save for the virgin girls, was His way of showing mercy? Yikes, talk about moral relativism.

If God is truly God, then he is perfect and unchanging. He has no need to change as change would imply he was imperfect and needed to change to become perfect.

So God's order to wipe out an entire population (and lots of other pretty horrible things he commands the Hebrews to do in the Torah) was as moral (or immoral) then as it is now.

This is like the moral relativists who make excuses for George Washington owning slaves, i.e. "well, everyone owned slaves back then! It was okay then, but not now!" Philosophically bankrupt moral relativism.

And then to read stuff into it like "well, those people were sacrificing babies to Bhaal" -- how convenient! Remember that this is the history of the Jews written by the Jews. Imagine if the Nazis had won WW2 and what your history books would say. The Jews deserved extermination because they were baby eaters, perhaps?

I honestly wonder what the thought process is for faithful Jews and Christians when they read that stuff. Do the excuses just poor into their minds as they read the Old Testament? How else could anyone retain a faith in the god of the OT while reading about all those attrocities?

Or do they just skip over it all? I doubt there are many ministers who choose to give a Sunday morning sermon about the Israelites slaying entire tribes save for the virgin girls. Naah... let's give a nice, warm fuzzy sermon about the Golden Rule or something instead.

 

Okay, you're still not getting it. The orders were Moses's, not God's; all God did was give Moses free reign (and free will) to stop the danger to his people. Moses was the one who decided on the course of action. If you want to call the people of the time morally bankrupt, go right ahead, but God was simply too aloof to dirty His hands with such things.

 

And you know this, how? The god you worship could be an absolute bastard, but you would not know.
An evil deity will simply move their evil, omnipotent little pinky and make you believe whatever he wants, including your own free will and choice of said beliefs.

 

It's what the book says, and I thought Rally made it rather clear. And for the record, I do not worship that God (because He is a bastard ) or any other that is discussed on this board; I have my own set of beliefs, delved from late night ponderings.