Dark Arts from God, White Magic from Satan.

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Ah yes, but "good" things can come from killing a person.

Never heard of the saying, One man´s dead is another´s bread?

 

Well I would define white magic as the healing or excorsim of a person in the name of God.

 

Actually, I haven't heard the phrase. I have heard the bit about poison and meat, though.

Anyways, let's suppose that "white" magic's source is undefined. Whether it comes from a deity, the forces of nature, or whatever, in this case, is not very revelant.

So what you are saying is that if I were to cast a curse (black magic, duh) to kill a very bad person, it would be a "good" thing, and therefore it can be defined as either "black" or "white". I imagine it would still be "black", because I am directly harming someone (but perhaps indirectly helping others), I am using "black" magic.

A Wiccan would kick me in the hiney.

 

So you are saying that the people he would otherwise have killed would not be alive?

If that magic-user didn´t kill that bad person, wouldn´t he be somewhat responsible for the people the bad-person will kill then?

And what of the animals which will feed on the corpse?
Will they not prosper? In favor of the food-chain?

It may totally sound like indirect effects, but if a magic-user doesn´t really care about any indirect effects it will bring, he shouldn´t even be "given" those powers.

In the end, it´s not the type of spell which gives it a "black" or "white" color, but the purpose it´s used for.

 

I'm not sure what you mean in the second line, Morgoth. I have no idea why a person is responsible for the murders another person has committed (or whatever bad deeds have been done).

If a person kills someone to feed his dog, then that's still magic that harms someone. Because if someone is "given" this power, I doubt the ends would justify the means.

I think you are trying to say that "black" magic can be used for good purposes, and that "white" magic can be used for evil purposes. While that's not usually the way it's associated with, it can be that way. Does that make the magic's label change? Hypothetically, Ii I use "black" magic for a good purpose, does it change the fact that I'm using it to harm someone?

 

For the second line it all comes down to this:

Do you feel moraly responsible if you are the only person who can kill one man to save 10?

You are responsible for the death of 10 when you don´t kill that 1 man. And responsible for the death of 1 when you kill him and save 10.

No I didn´t say that, I said the purpose defines the color, not that the color defines the purpose..

Wouldn´t it be easier for that man to go to the shop for some dogbiscuits? If that man could cast "curse" I think he could also "summon money" or "summon dogbiscuits" , and the effect, he will be arrested for murder and feeding his dog with the corpse!

If a man with such low wisdom goes out to kill people for feeding it´s dog and then gets arrested, he shouldn´t even be given those powers, right?

 

Drifting to the topic of murder - I'd say that I wouldn't be able to make a choice if I were the only person able to prevent the murder of ten. But that's quite off-topic, I think.

Purpose and type. Well, it's going to be very moot, but color is going to be quite irrevelant here. If a rogue Wiccan or whoever says she believes that "black" magic is magic that helps, and that "white" magic is magic that hurts, then she's out of line with the traditional Wiccan way of thought (and she probably wouldn't be practicing "white" magic, in her own terms).

I never really intended to identify color as much of a good/bad thing than a label. I only thought it needed clarification.

So you are saying that I cast X spell, and it hurts. Therefore it can be considered "black". If I cast X spell again, and it helps, this time it can be considered "white". If I cast X spell a third time, and this time it hurts and helps, then it's in a grey area.

But if a higher power is granting us this sort of power, then he/she/He/She/it/It probably wouldn't let us fool around like that. So the higher power would only let a magic-user cast, oh, say, X spell to help. So it's white magic. Or maybe he only lets me cast white magic, so I can only use X spell that may help. It's a moot point from there.

Going on with the dog, well, maybe the person owns a very vicious hound will only eat recently deceased human flesh. And the person is strongly attached to the dog. It's a very hypothetical situation, alright?

 

So an wiccan has the spell superheal, and there is a huge terifying wounded demon from hell eating and slaughtering the villagers. And the wiccan walks up to the wounded demon and heals him, yup thats an example of white magic..

Ah yes, but he will also helping his dog

 

Yup, that's an example of white magic.

No one ever said it had to be associated with a good thing. Besides, you are showing it compassion, traits of "goodness" (even if it is a demon).

The harming of the human is what the spell has accomplished. The spell has not directly accomplished feeding a dog. The death of the humna has accomplished feeding a dog.

 

So now you can still use "white" magic for "evil" things?

Ah yes, but you should also take the indirect effects into consideration, and for this time, the indirect effects led to the action..

 

That is what I am saying - a magic-user might be able to do some sort of "white" magic to further evil. "White" needn't be directly associated with evil. As with the example of the rogue Wiccan, "white" and "black" are only labels, stickies that have been put on a spell.

I'm not sure if the effects had led to the action in my example. The action led to effects, which in turn led to other effects, which in turn probably led to other effects, and so on.

 

It's true that white magic may cause harm in the long run and black magic's bounty might look good, but essentially in the light of Christian faith both are from unholy sources. Another thing is when black magic is used for good or white magic for evil. Shall we say supporting spells cast on malefactors or necromancy used to save a town by mustering the whole cemetery to its defence. Heh, this way it's obvious that neither means nor aims should serve as exclusive criteria.

 

I have never heard of a situation where a spell "jammed" because it was not being used for it's intended purposes. The fact is that a witch would stick to white or black but only because of her training. Most mages would fill a gray zone where they could cast both types of spells depending on what they knew, actually some mages have theorized that all magic comes from the human soul and the gods are just shadows in our minds.

I was wondering how many people in this forum were actually magic users of one kind or another, speak up I'm not a witch hunter.

 

I have never heard of a magic-user in Real Life.

 

Nice topic.
First of all there is something to be clarified. The word magic takes many definitions. I know that even the churches use "magic" in the form of rituals. Don't forget that the rituals the clerics perfom with the unconcious help of the crowd are a form of magic in order to call upon the favour of god.
The difference is that the church does not accept any other "magic" as evil since the god is only one and the rituals that are perfomed outside the church are enpowered by the satan. In other circles the definition of magic takes another form and it becomes more open minded with the definition of white and black used to judje the intented outcome not the way it is performed.
These circles are the arcades and they are separated in black and white due to the intensions they use the "magic".
And black and white in real life is not so applicable as it should be. That's why the term grey is used IMHO

[ April 22, 2003, 09:35: Message edited by: Mithrantir ]

 

He's right, actually all magic is powered by the human will, an example is when you focus on winning something weather it's a race or a game that's technically magic. The whole point of rituals is to focus your mind, once you are suitable learned you can dispense with the rituals completly.

The general point behind this theory is that all magic comes from you, whoever you say you worship the source is the same.

 

@Mithrantir: That was already explained in the previous page.

Heh, we're coming back to the beginning of this topic - and may well get stuck in a loop. All pray read previous posts carefully and don't repeat already said things, but rather refer to the current stream of discussion.

 

Sometimes you have to hammer the point home, in this case however I forgot what was in the last post. It generally matters who you worsip since they serve as an extra focus for your will. Sometimes it's important to have a bit of extra bang in your spells.