Denmark opens up a can of worms

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I will have to argue on what the Bible says.
I believe that what we are reading in the Holy Bible is the outcome of a lot of filtering and tampering, if you ask me.
The Jewish law is a same issue here. They took ten commandments and they produced ten thousand more.
Quran, allthough tampered too, is tampered way too less than the previous two.
I don't misunderstand Muslims ( I have talked with some) but i know that there is a bigger (than Christians that is) proportion of zealots.
And furthermore as i said most Muslims are uneducated (excluding the reading of Quran that is) in most Muslim countries. The reason for that is simple, bad economics allow only purely free education, which is provided by the Mullah of every city. By teaching only the Quran.
I don't say that these people are savages. But by drawing the face (MIND the key word FACE) of Muhhamed or Allah for their religion you have committed a crime punishable by death. Simple as that, allthough fearfull.
I don't say that i believe that the majority of the Muslim will hold it in their minds forever. But some (the zealots) they will. And at this period of history, where a clash between these two different worlds (they are) is boiling, if you see the 99,0% of the militant groups (meaning active fighters), you will realize that are Muslims in religion. We are giving them excuses to gather more troops. That is my real fear.

 

The entire mess in the middle east today comes from the western world colonising them over the last 2 centuries. We created the problem, but the only way we can eliminate it is by NOT threatening them. Islam is a comparitively young religion. Remember what the Christians were like 600-700 years ago? The only way they will evolve is if we allow it (rather than forcing it). The bottom line is that, although the problem is our (the western world's) fault, we cannot fix it, nor should we. Giving Democracy to a nation at gun point is not democracy.

 

Agreed. We should not impose our idea of society on them. They have every right to their own ways.

The same is true for us, too. In our nations we can do as we please. Including to deal with our fears of and misgivings for some fanatics corrupting Islam by having artists picture it in caricatures. It's a tradition here, and it doesnt spare politicians, churches, big business - and is by definition outrageous. So, what you understand as democracy in action, Drew, I perceive as projection of their circumstances onto our lifes. Not acceptable.

 

Have i ? 40% of the people in the city i live in are from North African, Arabic or Turkish descent. I've worked with them, worked for them, sat down with them and drank coffee or tea with them, and most of all...i live among them. So for that matter i know exactly what i'm talking about, and i can assure you that they ARE very different than we are. Their entire way of life, values in life, interrests, raising their children, sexual preferences, and last but not least, things they do not appreciate in OUR society, which are legio, let me tell you that much. The only thing what i misunderstand about them, is that if there are truly so many disturbing things for them in our way of life, then why do they insist in staying here ?

And that's easy to answer...it's money. Our infidel capitalist cash is the only thing that's not underneath their pride, for the rest they are not interrested in getting involved in whatever cultural affairs around here.

 

Well, it looks like they are really going apesh*t over this (it's on the CNN now):

Like it was not the European Union who kept them going all these years. These guys are rapidly losing any respect and symphathy from my part.

 

I think the discussion wheter we should keep supporting the Palestinians financially now that Hamas pulls the strings is a complete waste of time.

A loud and clear "no" is the only answer here. To hell with these fanatics and their idiotic rethoric.

 

Though, restrictions on freedom of expression which privilege certain ideas cannot be justified. One striking feature of the events surrounding the depiction of the prophet Muhammad in a Danish cartoon is the remarkable absence of sensible dialogue on either side. Instead, there have been a series of accusations and counter-accusations. The editor of the German publication Die Welt appeared tonight on British television, justifying his decision to republish the cartoons as a gesture of free-speech, but refused to condemn Germany's very broad and very harsh censorship on Holocaust denial and other forms of anti-semitism. Indeed, he went as far as to say that he would never publish anything that was deemed to be anti-semitic. This apparent contradiction raises broader issues of free speech and human rights that have so far not been addressed sufficiently. Responsible media has a social and moral obligation both to combat intolerance and to ensure open public debate about matters of public concern. But, it appears some newspapers have been deliberately provocative in republishing the drawings. It would seem that some are baiting the Muslim population simply to use the out-spill to attack the Islamic population as a whole and further their own prejudiced agenda.

While the knee-jerk reaction to the publications in the Middle East is well documented, it is obvious that some in the media and these boards believe such actions to be entirely confined to the Islamic population. A brief look at the violent sectarianism and rampant religious bigotry in Northern Ireland reveals the problem to be a very European one as well. Freedom of speech must be accompanied by positive measures to promote equality and combat intolerance and prejudice, so that such freedoms are not simply abused by these bigots, be they Muslim, Christian, or Jew, too cowardly to engage in civilized debate.

 

@Pac Man: Were any of those people terrorists? Do they think we should kill homosexuals? Do they think we should cut the arms off of thieves? Do they feel that women should cover up everything but their eyes and never travel without a male escort? That women should not drive? I'm betting some do believe some of what I've listed. Most? Not a chance. I think we have different definitions of "not that different". (Not to mention that there is a huge number of christians that feel the same thing about the state of our society...)

 

Well Drew, with the exception of terrorists, everthing else was on that list. I guess if they were terrorists, they sure wouldn't tell it to me eh ?

And i would also like to add to the list: The bulk of North African teenagers are criminals. I'm not guessing here, research learn that before the age of 20, 70 to 80% of them has been involved in criminal activities, and have been arrested and convicted, 40% of said numbers are arrested and convicted more than once, so they didn't learn anything from their first time behind bars. Also, 60% of those teens, drop out of school early, which leaves them without a single chance of a decent job in the future, which ultimately leads to a life of crime. Strangely enough their parents don't condemn such behaviour, but only mumble things like "it's the will of Allah", while, if i would have done something wrong as a teen, my old man would have set me straight, by slapping some sense into me.

They also show a severe lack of respect for other people's properties, by stealing everything that's not attached to something heavy, vandalising motorvehicles, and hang around on streetcorners in large groups, intimidating people that pass by. They are more of a burden to our society, than an asset, because the majority is unemployed, and aren't making a real effort to turn the situation around. Dropping out of school at the age of 14 isn't going to help either.

Oh yes...we ARE very different, you just don't see it, because you don't live in a neighbourhood like i do.

 

Well, actually employees from the Danish company Arla were assaulted in... Saudi-Arabia, I believe. They were pretty much told to piss off or there would be consequences. As far as I was informed, they were slapped around a bit, too.

 

Peaceful Protest?

Since when has

been peaceful

Source:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060130/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_prophet_drawings_5


Since when are signs like this one appropriate for a protest over a cartoon?
(From london protests) http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060203BritishMuslims04.jpg
or this one:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060203BritishMuslims02.jpg
or this one:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060203BritishMuslims03.jpg

 

Well, I´ve been going through the posts in this thread and perhaps I should clear up some details. The 12 drawings were published some time before Christmas. Back then the uproar wasn´t such a big deal, a few Muslims complained a bit, but overall there wasn´t much fuss.

Then a selfappointed delegation of Muslims travelled around the Islamic parts of the world bringing along the drawings and, astoundingly enough, some other drawings who had not been published in ANY newspapers here in Denmark.

This delegation apparently told many religious leaders around the Middle East that the general population are hounding Muslims in the extremes here in Denmark. They brought along a drawing of Mohammed with the nose of a pig, a drawing that has NEVER been published anywhere in Denmark.

This apparently got Muslims all over the Middle East so worked up that many of the countries demanded that the Danish Constitution was changed so that the depiction of Mohammed was outlawed.

The Danish Prime Minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, refused to make any such change, bringing up the point of freedom of speach. He did, however, in an interview say that personally he would not have published these pictures, but pointed out that this was only his personal opinion, not the letter of the law.

And there you have it. The boycot has been initiated, because the Danish government has refused to limit the freedom of speach for newspapers or give a formal apology in a matter that doesn´t have ANYTHING to do with the government. Some Muslim leaders have even demanded an apology from the Danish Queen, a person who is forbidden by law to take a political stand.

JEEZUS!

 

Erm..no....Mohammed.

 

@ Pac Man: I've spent a lot of time on this post, primarily because I'm so appalled and angry right now, that I've had to continually re-censor myself. You said some very biggoted things. I know you are just calling things like you see them, but try to keep in mind that those are your experiences and do not, under any circumstance, apply everywhere or apply to everyone (or even most people). When I read things like what you had to say about Arabs and North Africans, it makes me think of my grandfather and his baseless attitudes towards Japanese people and Germans (leftover from WW2). He is purportedly speaking from a factual base as well. From my perspective, what you said about Muslims and North African teenagers is racist, biggoted, and ignorant. My experience working with Arabs as an interpreter and student for 5 years just don't match up with the sweeping generalizations that you have made. I have met Arabs that felt some of the things I've mentioned. Most of them, however, had moral attitudes comparable to those of very conservative christians. (A little extreme when compared to my liberal world view, but nothing that a recently born-again relative wouldn't also agree with.) I didn't grow up where you did. Does that mean that my 2 years of immersion training with native Arabic speakers and subsequent 3 years working as an Arabic interpreter (with Arabs) is worthless? My experiences aren't the same as yours. It doesn't make you right.

[ February 04, 2006, 03:59: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

This whole thing is just ridiculous. How many religious figures have been the centre of piss takery in movies, pictures, magazines, etc? Loads, but as soon as it comes to islam, there's a god damn uprising. This behaviour is just unacceptable. Look at these pictures here here and here, this is some protest in the UK somewhere apparently. All over some dumb cartoon, unbelievable, it pains me that people like this are allowed to live in this country. It makes me sick, and of course, if the white man stands up and has anything negative to say about any of it, he is inciting racial hatred. Absurd.

[ February 04, 2006, 03:13: Message edited by: Sarevok• ]

 

@Drew

Try to control your anger, nowhere in my posts did i mention South Africans.

And yes...i was expecting it to come down to bigotry and racism, that always happens when people run out of valid arguments. I'll make sure to tell my girlfriend, who happens to be black, that i'm accused of racism, i think she'll find that most interresting.

Frankly, you can call me whatever you like, i base my opinion on what i see on a daily basis. And what i see is that they are very different from us native folks, even though we're dealing with the third generation already. What made you so angry in the first place ? The fact that i called the majority of North African youths criminals ? Well, what do you want me to do ? Lie for the sake of peace ? I'm only stating what was reported in the newspapers here not too long ago, or do you consider them bigots and racists too ?

I respect your past as an arabic linguist, and the fact that you worked with people, but i assume that was in their natural environment, no ? Well, let me assure you that the ones who emigrated to Europe are a totally different breed than those who stayed at home. For all the things they pull off here, they would be severely punished in their homeland, while overhere they usually get away with a warning and a fine, that's another example of showing absolutely no respect for other people's values.

The other day someone of Moroccan descent told me an interresting story about the Dutch Moroccans' behaviour when they go on vacation in their old homeland. They act arrogant, and treat the locals as if they were a bunch of backwater peasants. The native Moroccans have started to develop a feeling of distrust towards their own emigrated countrymen, and would rather see them go away and not coming back. Now doesn't that say it all ? They have mutated so much in only a few decades, that they are not really welcome in their own homeland AND in their new. Now why would that be you reckon ?

 

I meant North. I just edited my earlier post. And I'm not out of arguments. I just don't argue with people who make sweeping generalities about large groups of people based on their own limited experience with a small portion of them. Trying to talk you out of your preconceptions would prove as fruitful as trying to trying to talk my grandfather out of his. I was also very careful to tell you that you appeared racist by my perspective. I didn't say you were, merely that it appeared that way to me. I worked very hard to remain objective. Since you decided to bring up your girlfriend as a way of defending yourself against an accusation I didn't actually make, I feel compelled to point out that it is possible to be racist towards one group without being racist towards another. I think you should reconsider your preconceptions and try to see people for who they are without paying attention to what they are. It can be quite enlightening.

EDIT: control my anger? My post wasn't angry at all. The only reason you knew that I was angry in my earlier post is that I told you. I've been controlling it just fine.

[ February 04, 2006, 04:36: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

Why would i want to do that ? I see teenage criminals, that's all i need to know. Why would i be interrested in getting to know who they are ? A criminal is a criminal, wheter he's black, white, or purple with yellow spots, and i'm not interrested in mingling with that sort of people. I don't call that enlightning, i call that putting your head in the sand and pretend there's nothing wrong.

But you are arguing with me, what else would you call what you're doing right now ?

And i don't make sweeping generalisations, i observe and i come to conclusions, that's all. Like i said, i live in a city with a large contingency of immigrants (40%), the majority of people in my very own neighbourhood are Islamic (Kurds, Turks, Moroccans, Iranians, Afghans), so compared with me, it's you who has the limited experience with only a small portion of them. You spent a few years abroad and worked with them ? Big deal, i've been living among them half my life.

[ February 04, 2006, 14:06: Message edited by: Pac man ]

 

@ Drew
Dont you feel you are just ever so slightly off given what Sarevok linked us to? Just a little bit?

Be prepared for the real Holocaust!

I take it you are from the US. When not familiar with the situation here you are not in a position to comment on it. Slogans of that sort dont come out of the blue. There is hatred for us here. Your personal experiences with muslims mean absolutely nothing, when obviously others can paint a different picture, from their experiences. Oh, and from examples like that mob there, of course. Your claims would only be meaningful were there an unmistakable and loud 'NO' to this unbelievable behaviour coming from the peaceful majority of muslims you are talking about - and which, I hope, really exists.

Dont you feel they let you down with their silence? Because I do. I would feel much better were they to step in here and make themselves heard.