Does belief make something a fact?

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Thanks for your peacemaking, Hacken Slash. But I still think our two camps are irreconcilable. (You put your two cents into the arena, I put my two feet in my mouth.) Get your straitjacket ready!

I'm someone who believes in "miracles, God, angels, demonic posession, [and] faith". Not because they're unreal, but because they're very much real! Reality is not limited to the material, and the spiritual and material affect each other. An example: if I'm physically exhausted and skip my prayer, then my physical condition has affected my spiritual side. Or if I pray for healing and get healed, then the spiritual has affected the physical.

But this is very different from what Manus and Mithrantir have posited, who argue that it is mind and will that determine what is and isn't real.

I guess you could say that the "realist" camp is concerned with what IS, but the "hyper-realist" camp is concerned with what we THINK. So Laches, dmc, and I could have a legitimate argument about whether or not God exists, and each of us could marshal relevant arguments and evidence, because we believe that the truth exists independent of our own opinions. But how do you argue with someone who makes the truth an incidental result of opinion (whether of individuals or planets)?

I repeat my earlier question: Does evidence create or reflect reality?

 

Don't you see Grey? I'm saying the same thing you are. This reality is but a shade of the spiritual, the hyper-reality within which we have our base. Our thoughts -that is, our beliefs and our will- are a far step closer to that spiritual plane than are our physical bodies, thus when the two compete (in a developed, or spiritually minded or orientated person, who is becoming aware of the world around him, becoming more of that world than the other) then his thoughts will be the superior- our bodies, this earth, only the current vehicle for those thoughts, as "angels" or "demons" have other vehicles, other material bases like ours, only finer.

You say you pray to God for Healing - I say the same thing, except I see God as a part within both myself, the person I am healing, the force or energy that is transmitted, and everything else- I call that energy in, and pray to my own, and their, higher selves, just as you pray to the christian God, and my intent, my frame of mind of worship, awe, and love, for something greater than us, and us ourselves as a part of that, is the same.

Since my thoughts are superior to my physical body, can you not see that if the body can affect the spiritual side, so can your thoughts? If one is full of hate or bitterness, these things will not come easy. Likewise, if you perform such things, you can no-longer contain such hurtful mental states (for the time being at least).

I agree with both Hacken Slash and Shazamdude, so while we may be able to do certain things, some things we may not be yet able to overcome, as everything is but a part of that omniscient ever-present God- "in him we live and move and have our being." and while our thoughts can have dramatic effects on how we percieve that world, and how we react to it, the world at the same time is reacting to us. Spirit and matter are two shades of the same thing; we are not affecting reality with our thoughts, we are affecting other, denser, thoughts, we are affecting only ourselves.

With our thoughts, we make the world.

I know this is a type of philosophy or theology that is rooted in personal belief, I know that, wanting to believe it, I will cause any evidence I see to back up my own claim, thus I am flawed, but so are all others.

So evidence does neither, it neither creates nor reflects reality- it reflects our own perceptions, and creates our own beliefs. It is these perceptions and beliefs which then create more evidence.

Depending on those we currently hold, we will act accordingly, and change the world - not to fit our perceptions by any means, we may be totally incorrect, but it will have some effect, that is certain. If we believe a man should be killed, and kill him, it has not meant that he was therefore guilty of deserving death, but it does mean that he is now dead, has been killed.

Does this mean if we believe something then it is true? no, of course not, our opinions are not that strong, as I said before, each thing knows itself, and God, and gods, being a part of those things, know them also. But our belief creates something, either incidentally and unrelated or intentionally and substantial. It is the intentionally and substantial of which I have been talking, but I fear you have taken me to mean that all things are effected in this way, which saying I am not.

Evidence reflects our own reality, and then creates a new one- as does everything.

there is no spoon

I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself.

 

As long as he believes in himself, he exists.

We shape our own reality, and thus, there is no spoon. I have chopsticks.

I hope that makes as much sense as it is supposed to...

 

Manus and Mithrantir have brought 2 very important words into this discussion that I think are very important namely: Awareness and Perception.


So keeping those in words in mind, I'm going to modify the question somewhat and ask this:

A thousand years from now, nobody will believe in God and all relevant literature and belief in God will have been eradicated to the extent that nobody is aware that there is a God.

Will God still exist?

[ November 26, 2003, 12:52: Message edited by: Human ]

 

Is this a hypothetical or do you have a time machine? If you assert it as fact, you have far more confidence in the assertion than I would. I also think that by asserting it as fact you've just sidetracked the entire discussion.

So, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt and treating it as a hypothetical. I'll point out the question is already answered above multiple times. It isn't a new question - it's the same question you already asked phrased differently.

What is, is. My being ignorant doesn't change that.

It seems to me there is a great reluctance in these days to say - "you're wrong." It's like it has become taboo or dirty in some parts to tell someone that. So, instead, we bend over backwards to find a way that everyone can be right all the time. It's not that people are wrong, it's just that they're right in their reality which is their opinion. I don't mean to be offensive but I think it is all incredibly silly. Surfer-guru philosophy is what it was referred to in school.

So, does belief change reality? No. You may think it does but you'd be wrong. I can't convince you of that however so we're at an impasse. I think impasse is what is being recognized.

 

I have posted that belief is a personal issue haven't i? So we agreed from the beginning.
As for the world or if the sky is pink or if we really leave upside down or whatever else i can only tell you that only if i had a very disciplined and powerfull mind i could alter your reality. Mine i can relatively easy but yours or anyone elses that is tough and dangerous.

Mysticism and the occult studies were there before science and there is a sea of knowledge hidden from the masses for they own sake. You make call it magic or whatever, but don't forget that Church is performing these rituals too. Because when you go to church to attend the liturgy you see a ritual taking place and you are taking part even unconciously. If you want we can discuss it further but it is another subject. These rituals are not randomly created. They follow some principles and regulations allthough you as just another simple worshipper may be anaware of the real meaning.
This world (i mean our society our enviroment as it is today)is something that we have formed not something that existed before we came in. What a better proof to show you that we affect and change our enviroment with our minds. Even when you say crate or skycraper or car, you are talking about things someone was dreaming of them put his mind into work to create them. Yes it took thousands of years but few people have the ability to change reality at an instant.
Human if noone believed in God and he was forgotten from everyone he would be as good as dead. He may still exist but he could noway affect you or do anything that involves someone other than him.
But i want to take the opportunity you gave me to say that God is more a need to quiet our fears than anything else. He may exist and our lifespam is too short for anyone to be able to prove it as Plato said. But much more than that we need to believe that there is someone bigger/stronger/wiser/eternal out there who watches us with a mercifull and caring eye.
I believe that there is a higher force, spirit (call it Buddha, God, Allah, Zaratustra, Zeus, Manitou) but he exists within us and the whole world. He is the essence of the world. We are mere vessels for a portion of that energy.

 

What I was trying to get at is that perception and awareness dictates what exists and what does not exist. The first question asked if God would exist if no-one believed in him (This made for the allowence that they are aware of the concept but nobody believes it e.g. bibles as a reference point on which to base this belief). The second point just goes a little bit further by saying what if no-one believed in God and all trace of information or reference towards him were eradicated, would he still exist.

If God existed in literature or before our time, then he most probably did exist simply for the fact that someone or another believed or perceived him to be real. If nobody was aware of him in the first place and there was no reference to him whatsoever, would he still exist knowing that we can not perceive what he is? If you are thinking of the expression "I think therefore I am", I think Grey covered that topic already.

To Laches, sorry for the confusion, it seems I'm doing that alot today.

P.S. Ithought yousaid you were bowing out of this discussion?

 

Powerful statement. I agree with this 100% however we can't always tell what is and what isn't. If god is, he is. If he isn't, he isn't. Simple as that.

Flawed. The only thing perception dictates is what we believe exist. Existence is absolute and universal. Just because I close my eyes doesn't mean the world cease to exist does it? My perception of the world might cease to exist, but the very existence of the world is certainly beyond my "faithly" control.

 

In regards to spirtual things I believe that belief does indeed make something a fact.

To a born again Christian I am hellbound as I do not believe in Jesus. In his heaven I will not be.

In my belief I am worthy of heaven and have every expectation to be invited.

To those who believe in nothing, I expect upon death they become worm food and their spirit dies with them.

I firmly believe in the power of the mind/positive thinking. Does it always work, probably not. Does it never work, I doubt it.

 

I belief that happens to anyone, regardless of his or her beliefs.

 

i fail to see how belief will somehow become fact, unless we are able to shape reality with our minds

which we can't

this isn't the matrix

 

I think the question is poorly phrased. I don't know whether the poster is a believer but as stated the question assumes a priori the existence of a supreme being. So the question needs to be rephrased:

Does the belief of millions in God cause Him to exist?

Clearly the answer is no for both believers and non-believers.

The posit that belief, faith, prayer, thought alone can create or alter reality is an absurdity and I find it worrying that many people here appear to believe that it is so. What are we? Cargo cultists? Painted savages praying to the moon?

If you care to, you can calculate the energy of your thoughts. The electrical activity of your neurons generates, what, a few milliwatts. Multiply this by the number of seconds that you think about something (or pray to your god) and you get the energy of your thoughts, in joules. It isn't a very great deal and is dissipated as heat anyway.

As for the hot air about whether things continue to exist when they are not perceived, pur-lease, enough of the first year philosophy already. As humans we make assumptions about how the world works (so does every creature, for that matter, but we are alone in being able to consider them). They're part of the software of our brains and nobody needs to work them out from first principles. One assumption that we make is that the world doesn't vanish every time we blink. It is no coincidence that our assumptions tally with how the world actually works. If they didn't we would be no more than part of the fossil record because we'd have died out while trying to eat and f**k rocks.

 

Laches. If you can be bothered.

I agree that faith can't change reality, but my question would be having said this,

"You may think it does but you'd be wrong. I can't convince you of that however so we're at an impasse."

why do you need to convince me or anyone else?

This is a sort of devil's advocate type question, I agree with you, but not the convince bit.

 

Hehe, dmc, when you've grown up surrounded by people who possess these "mental powers" you'll find you accept their existence far more readily

Besides, mass and energy are the same thing, even from physics point of view (I was awarded a scholarship to study physics after all), E=mc^2 anyone?

Besides, there are finer forms of energy than that subject to the puny wills of scientists!

Can you move your arm? then you can read another's thoughts, heal another's wounds, stop another's beating heart, bend a spoon even - they are all a part of you just as much as is the arm.

Chris Williams, please read the post before you reply. If you have not had any experience in these fields I understand your hesitancy, I even expect it, but to resort to derrogoratory is unnecessary I think.

From the nature of your post I can tell you are a staunch materialist. From personal experience I know you are therefore wrong in at least some of your beliefs- having had a good deal of experience with those things not physical, that you would say are impossible.

I don't know who cargo cultists are, or why you feel so hostile towards them (you mentioned them in another post as well), but I don't see what the moon has to do with anything- and if someone wants to paint themselves and pray to it, who are we to disagree; it may even work. Such things are usually simply a focus for something else, or mean more than what they seem on the surface- but just because everyone doesn't feel they must explain their reasons to you, doesn't mean they have none.

 

@Manus
First off, an explanation of cargo cults. During the war in the Pacific, the Americans set up air bases in many remote islands in the South Pacific bringing with them various goods and suchlike. After the war, they left. In some parts of the South Pacific these men and their machines have become objects of veneration. The collective term for these cults is "cargo cults". The cultists build effigies of aeroplanes and pray to them in the vain hope that these will bring back the men in their flying machines who will then provide for all the followers' needs (I was referring to these effigies in another post when I said that aeroplanes built on religious principles do not fly, whereas those built on scientific principles most certainly do). I put it to you that educated people who believe in the power of prayer or faith healing or whatever are no less superstitious than these South Sea Islanders.

The conclusion here does not follow from the question. There is a well known causal connection between the intent to move your arm and the movement of your arm. If you sever the connection between your brain and your arm, as happens in cases of quadriplegia, then all the will in the world will not cause your arm to move. It does not follow that if you have the ability to perform non-miracles with your mind (moving your arm) that you have the power to perform miracles (stopping another's heart). What's more, there are no verifiable, repeatable cases of any such thing happening. Spoon bending? It's a conjurer's trick. You might as well claim that Siegfried and Roy have miraculous powers.

Please elaborate. If you are referring to faith healing or anything similar, there is nothing to explain. There are many sick people; they often get better. Even conditions which do not hold out a positive prognosis sometimes go into spontaneous remission. Because we do not understand the mechanism of spontaneous remissions, this does not mean that we should seek supernatural explanations. Faith healers are charlatans who trumpet their rare successes while keeping quiet about their frequent failures. You don't need to invoke magic to explain faith healing, you only need to invoke statistics.

Also, for anybody here who does believe in faith healing, please think about the logical implications, because they're rather nasty. Let's say that I have terminal bowel cancer. A faith healer offers his services, holds his hands over my belly and says "be healed!" I don't get better like most people in these cases. It is either my fault because I lacked faith or else it's because God is a capricious type who wasn't in a giving mood that day.

 

You are to be judged by your actions not what do you believe. There are many christians that allthough they believe they won't be allowed in. And Jesus Christ did not mentioned anything about believing in Him and gaining access to heaven as an outcome.

It becomes a fact to the one who believes it not to anyone else.
I believe we can given certain requirments are met.
You don't know this for a fact.You assume/hope/believe we are not in this situation, you and noone else so far can prove it.

This is conventional type of energy there alternatives you know. Just because our society relys upon a limited number of energy types does not mean that there are other types unknown to us.

Please read the posts. There are conditions that must be met for this to happen, i have written some of them, and certainly not everyone is able to create something or alter something just by belief there are the before mentioned conditions that this person must meet

 

I just can't leave well enough alone! OK, two quick asides before I go to bed.

First, Mithrantir, you write:

Uh...I think Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Revelation are in disagreement with you here. And these are only the books where Christ says, first-person, that He is the only way to salvation - the rest of the epistles make the same claim. Look up John 14:6, if you want a specific verse.

Second, Chris - I hesitate to say anything that might make you judge me any less of a "perceptive chap", but you write:

Really, need we throw out the baby with the bathwater to prove your point? Christianity is on an entirely different level, rationality-wise, than cargo-cults or paleo-gnostic Buddhist-cum-Budhist mysticism. Even if you disagree that Christianity is true, its millennia of thorough theology, philosophy, and cross-cultural adaptation give it a "reasonableness" upon which science should hesitate to claim an exclusive monopoly.

 

Well i happen to know, to have read about or heard about if you prefer, that these gospels and all the gospels to be exact are in their "official" form not the exact copy of the original to put it midly. Furthermore there is a rumour that they are more gospels, that are classified as improper, and are not distributed in any way. And don't forget that church is another multiethnic company that tries to preserve her assets.
So as to if one must be a christian to gain access to paradise let me tell you that for the roman officer who took his sick servant to Jesus to cure him, he told him that he was blessed and surelyhe would go to paradise because he was caring, not because he was not christian, something he had stated in front of Jesus after all.

 

I can't speak for the rest, but in RC Church, faith isn't believed to guarantee salvation. Lack of faith doesn't preclude salvation. No one is deprived of opportunity for salvation. Condemnation is earned through rejection of salvation. Neither will works alone save you. You always need grace and, essentially, grace is the most important here, since without grace no one would be saved. In any case, the path leads through Christ's offering.

As for the topic, I find it surprising how many people believe that belief has creational and/or destructive power. As though your foughts could give singular entity and material existence to a concept. Or make something material a concept. One has nothing to do with the other.

[ November 30, 2003, 00:39: Message edited by: chevalier ]