Faith

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For me this whole fiath topic is a tricky one. I'm an unrepentant atheist and science believer. The problem is i have faith in something. I'm not sure what, but science cannot answer all the questions. I' not saying I'm agnostic, because I don't believe in some mystical higher force, but why do people care for one another? Why do we care if someone lives or dies? It comes down to more than science. If someone I never met died would I care? The answer is yes! Why? I don't know, but it has something, for me, to do with faith. Faith in the goodness of humanity, faith that there is hope and something worth living for, faith that we are not here for ourselves.
I don't see Faith as being a strictly religeous thing. I think it has something to do with more than that. Science and faith are not mutually exclusive, in fact I don't think they can exist apart. You need to believe in *something*, or what's the point. Why not do whatever is in your own best interest for your entire life?
That to me at least is the escence of the argument. Whether it's the belief in "good" or the belief in "God", everyone needs faith of some kind.

 

@Death RABBIT:

LEt me get this straight...you HONESTLY believe that I set out to make fun of your handle and not only that but you believe that the best I could come up with was "Death Rattle" as an insult?!? If I were into such childish behavior as insulting people whom, as far as I rememebr, I have never even had a disagreement with before, I PROMISE you my imagination is more fertile adn my wit much sharper than whomever would cough up "Death Rattle" to insult someone called "Death Rabbit".

Think about it for a minute.

"Faithist" is an insult to people of faith??? Then I am sorry. I truly was not aware that this word was even common and certainly did not think it has usage beyond "One who has faith" or "one who believes in the validity of faith".


What arguments did I dismiss out of hand and not answer to your satisfaction?

Perhaps if you DEFINE "Faith" as you are using it, it would help us to understand why you ACCUSE me of such dastardly things(/sarcasm).

EXACTLY MY POINT!!!! If it is a tool for understanding(just as REASON IS!!) then show ME!!! Make me understand something, NOT by reasoning the point with me, but with "faith". Appeal NOT to my rationality but to my "faith"(which you emphatically assert that I DO have).

AGAIN, this is EXACTLY the type of posting my "rant" was directed at! If faith can be used to enable or facilitate understanding(by "understanding" I mean UNDERSTANDING, not "mutual appreciation for our amorphously defined collection of beliefs"), then SHOW me! IF REASON is not the only tool for understanding(and faith is another) then do NOT use reason to explain this to me. "Faith" me this knowledge/understanding!

You are confusing "belief" and ACCEPTANCE. Accepting the big bang happened requires no "faith" or "belief".

"The well meaning contention that all ideas have equal merit seems to me little different than the disastrous contention that no ideas have any merit."- Carl Sagan, Broca's Brain

Are YOU open minded enough to consider that no God was required for teh bang to happen? Are YOU open minded enough to consider a universe WITHOUT ANY supernatural elements?

I ahve been on both sides of the fence. My open mindedness lead me from conservative christian and consipracy theorist to liberal skeptic and atheist. If it turns out that God exists or teh Lee Harvey Oswald did NOT act alone to kill JFK or that UFOs ARE visiting our planet then I will be open minded enough to say "boy was I wrong!" adn move on, letting the dogmatists suffer the embarrassment that comes with defending a ridiculous position in spite of the evidence to teh contrary.

Not only that but it means different things FROM SENTENCE TO SENTENCE! That is why I am asking YOU for a definition. IF "faith" is simply another word for "trust" or "hope" then I will stick with "trust" adn hope" thank you as is my right(this helps alleviate confusuion when discussing with others who might hold an understandibly more "spiritual" definition of faith).

Then by THAT definition, I have NO faith.

One cannot prove a negative, yes.

This is a common fallacy but it is STILL wrong. You cannot turn a NEGATIVE, dissenting position into a POSITIVE assertion simply by rewording it. I do not "believe in the non-existence of..." anything. I LACK belief in the existence of MANY things(dragons, gods etc.).

You CAN do this when discussing whether one likes chocolate cake or not. The statements "I do not like chocolate cake" and "I like NON-chocolate cake" are essentially the same because they can be made WITHOUT regard to any prior assertions about the existence of cake or assenting/dissenting response to said claim.

In short, existential claims and responses to them are a different animal

"I lack a belief in God" is a RESPONSE to someone else's positive claim that God exists or their question :"DO you believe in God?". As a RESPONSE, it is NEGATIVE regardless of how you word it!

Now "strong atheists" on the other hand...

I suspect that no matter what my true intentions are, the characterization of me as someone out to belittle or ridicule everyone without regards for the arguments and evidence seems to serve you and you will not abandon this notion.

I will waste no more of your time(or mine) trying to defend myself then.

Consider this a correction then: I do NOT believe in not believing in God(that is a nonsense statement). I simply lack a belief in ANY gods for which I have been presented existential claims. My atheism is not a "worldview" or all encompassing belief system. It is a specific response to one question/claim regarding the existence of deities or the worship of such.
To argue otherwise is akin to saying if you do not believe that your mother is an alien then this is your religion or something you are making an important, positive tenet of your worldview. Your positive believe that your mother is not an alien colors adn obfuscates all attempts at critical analysis!


Sounds silly doesn't it?

 

That's the first thing you've said about your assertions that I can agree with .

AMEN, Brutha !!

 

My father used to say that faith is not about believing in God, but about believing God. There is some meaning in that.

I don't really see faith as any sort of bargain, but I can fancy the thought. However, if we look at it this way, it's hardly a good bargain.

True, it helps you through. But it never helps you out. Ultimately, you always have to do your job, no matter what. No one will do things you have to do and no one will take your responsibility from you.

Faith helps you survive if you need the feeling that there is some sense in everything. Or that there is a purpose. However, faith brings troubles of its own. Your faith will be put to test. Doubts will haunt you and undermine whole your newly found certainty, too. Bad bargain, I think. Well, but there's something that keeps me there. Screw the bargain, screw the odds.

 

Let me get this straight. It was your fingers that typed my name wrong, mistake or not, and followed it up with a tone matching the perceived jab, and it's my fault I wasn't smart enough to deduce that your brilliance would have thought of something wittier to say, when you type and rant like someone in dire need of ritalin?

I suppose "Sorry, DR - that was a typo. You misread my intent..." was asking too much, huh?

THINK about THAT for A MINUTE!!!?!!!?!!? (sorry, I just had to see if typing like that made me sound more important or correct. It doesn't, I decided)

So, nothing's your fault, huh? It's all everyone else's misunderstanding, is it?

I do humbly request you brush up on your manners a little. If, despite the highly antagonistic and condescending tone of your posts, you think people are reading things into your posts that you don't intend, you might want to read them out loud, emphasis and all, before hitting send from now on and see how polite it sounds to you. Honestly, you come off like a maniac.

Even though I agree with more than you think I do, I won't really address the rest, because you're focusing too much on the semantics of the wording of what I said, which completely misses the point. Feel free to volley another childish, nutty sounding jab at me. I won't answer it.

Sorry, Jag, for ruining your topic, buddy.

 

Faith is a tricky thing as shown by the disagreements already showing up in this thread.
Personaly I have never had much faith myself,I always thought it was kind of an easy way to deal with the harshness that can be life.

That opion changed drasticaly when I met my mother in law.This was a women of very deep religouse beleifs and more faith than I have ever seen in one person.

She dealt with multiple schelorosis all her life and it realy debilitated her by the time she was in her late thirties.She needed help to get around and basicaly could not care for herself.

Then she got cancer around three years ago and finaly passed away early this year.The point being I never once heard her complain about what she was dealing with and she always beleived it was in gods plan for her.

Even in the face of such odds she never stopped being involved with her community and did alot of volunteer work with her church.I never realized what a huge impact she had until the viewing before her funeral.There was an unbeleivable amount of people from all over.

She had touched so many other lives in her short time here it was truly humbling.I still beleive that her faith and belief in god is what made all this possiable for her,so I think faith can have a huge impact on not only your life but those around.

So this amazing women showed me that faith can have a huge impact on not only the life of the person but it can also affect many others around them.

 

@Dorion

Through her "faith", your mother-in-law was able to give you a gift that is "rare" indeed...a gift of peace and tranquility that can not exist in a reality without God.

I fear that I have gotten too weird...and as such will lose the humanists whom I have been debating with...but Dorion...your Step-Mom has built up stores in heaven...

Look to her everday for the strength you need to meet the demands of life...

[ April 24, 2004, 17:23: Message edited by: Hacken Slash ]

 

Dorion, your mother-in-law is a good example who truly needed religion. To get MS which is a horrible afflication and then cancer on top of that without there being no purpose to it and the only reason to be blind chance or accident of birth is a thought too cruel to comprehend for most people. You more or less have to turn to faith to be able to live at all under such conditions and it is a good example of when strong religious faith can be a positive thing on a personal level. There are times when false comfort is better than no comfort at all.

 

But therin lies the question. She was probably in excruciating pain, but she still believed it was god's plan. This confuses me.

 

Yes you are not alone there Jaquar ,I think that is the part that confuses alot of people.

Joacqin sometimes I think it could be argued you are right about that.Sometimes if God exists or not could be irrelevant,but the belief in it may give the person the strength to face things they could not otherwise.

 

Before I start I'd like to say that I am a kind of person who has no idea whether god exists or not. But I like to think theres something waiting for us after our seemingly pointless lives. Its kind of comforting...

IMO my faith side thinks that god sometimes gives people life threatening diseases because it makes people stronger and allows them to do things a healthy person would never do.

My non faith side sticks with the old argument of "If god is such a good guy then why does he seemingly punish people from the moment they're born?"

Personally I really don't mind if God exists or not, if I was created by a freak accident in space time continum then so be it, the same with if I was carefully designed and created by some big guy in the sky. I live my life around others and try my best to respect their oppinions.

Jag live your life as you want, feel free to explore faith and if you find something then stick to it, if you don't then you don't, you won't miss anything either way IMO.

Note: sorry if this don't make sense...

 

Hacken Slash:


The "sounds silly doesn't it?" was not in reference to MY assertions. Go back and read the entire post.
Or are you now agreeing with me that such things are nonsense but you found it to deplorable a thing to simply say "I see your point now. I was in error"?


@Death Rabbit:

In an effort to get at some understanding here I am going to ask how you judged the "tone" of my repsponse? I am not being facetious here I really would like to see where I could have presented my points better so as to avoid future misunderstandings.

I need ritalin? That is rich. Again, pot meet kettle...

On another thread Splunge called me "Keldor" and then went on to disagree with a point I had made.

I did not take offense as it was obvious to me he was not trying to insult me or he would have said something like "RuneQueer" or "RudeQuack".

Again I ask you, do you HONESTLY think that "Death Rattle" sounds like a deliberate attempt at insult? Is it inconcieveable that the word "rattle" registered in my head as a common word paired with "Death"(containing the same number of syllables and beginning with the letter 'D') rather than an attempt to sleight you? Feel free to answer this when you are finished jumping up and down adn tossing out your own insults.

I suppose simply pointing out that I had made the mistake in the first place sans vitriol adn your wife's "Molestor" comment was asking too much as well.

In any case Sorry about the typo DR. You misread my intent.

You are correct here that I should not have added the "Think about it for a minute". I was a bit 'rattled'(pardon the pun) by you and HS' attacks I suppose.

Again, I apologise.

However, in pointing out the error why did you see fit to capitalize "THINK about THAT FOR A MINUTE" and add all those "!!!!!!"s"? THis seems to be a strawman as I never did such in my original admittedly unecessary comment.

Again, you misunderstand. My above was in response to the fact that you(as well as a few others) have ASSUMED certain things about me which are not demonstrated in my posts adn then went about attacking me based on those assumptions.

I am not bitter, angry, narrow-minded, anti-theistic, arrogant or suffering from delusions of grandeur. If you will assert or imply otherwise then I must ask for cites/refernces so that I may see how you infered such things.

And I will make the same request of YOU. You can start my sending me a PM to air such attacks rather than hijack other threads.

Again, "tone" is notoriously hard to assess in forum postings. I would like to know what I have said specifically that leads you to such conclusions(be sure to keep context in mind).

*Sigh* Nice to see you again Mr. Pot...

S'ok...I am getting used to that.

See now this is a prime example of the baseless allegations that lead to what you percieve as bad intent on my part.

WHERE have I paid to much attention to semantics?


HOW did I completely miss your point?


WHAT part of my arguments against faith above did not sound rational or logical to you and WHY?

Yeah, I am noticing a trend here for excuses given in lieu of answering legitamate arguments/points(usually "Oh you are just trying to insult me so I didn't even read it!").

Does anyone here disagree with what I said on the subject at hand? I would like to hear dissenting opinion on the matter if for no other reason than it is good mental excercise.

[ Warning pending ] - Beren

[ April 24, 2004, 18:24: Message edited by: Beren ]

 

I do. But to discuss it would be off topic, so I'm going to go to PM.

 

@ Runequester
I agree with what you say most of the time, not with your methods, though. Your 'tone' is a bit harsh at times.

But! it takes two (or more) to let a discussion degenerate. And what I said to you can be said about others as well, IMHO. :/
I am just throwing this out there.