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Faulty European Views

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Rastor, Jan 27, 2004.

  1. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Gonzago - Eliot is a bad example, since he lived most of his life in Europe, became an English citizen, and actually joined the Church of England. But nevertheless, your point is still well-taken. And I agree while we can be blamed for the likes of Brittney Spears, but also, Mark Twain, John Steinbeck, Herman Melville, Hawthrone, Dickinson, Whitman, Hemingway, etc, are all American contributions to Western Culture that are second to none. Ah, there is nothing more fun than hearing the loud thud of name dropping. :grin:
     
  2. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    On the popular culture part I was exaggerating for the sake of argument - kidding - I thought I made that clear enough.

    In the very essence this has become the "American Exceptionalism" debate. Just look at the mention of Europe being primitive and the reference to ethnic cleansing here. When the US teached Germany a lesson in democracy and how to be nice after WW-II and that discrimination of Jews is evil, American Universities, not only of the Ivy League, had jewish quotas and in the south there was race segregation. That is not meant as an accusation. Chandos made a good point too.
    It is about that sometimes so unbearable sense of mission, based on almost religious patriotism, free of doubt with the core prayer: "America is the chosen country, and the best place in the world!"

    And let me just repeat it once again - I think Frances Trollope really put it best when she wrote to Fanny Wright:
     
  3. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    *snicker* As if the EU doesn't use the same tactics to get what they want. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    We don't quite that often try the "at gunpoint approach", Europe negotiates and usually it has success with it - we made a deal with Iran on their nuclear program, because we had something to offer to them, not at least of all a degree of protection from US unilateralism.
    The US have already spent all measures short of force some 20 years ago - Iraq was totally enbargoed already - so what could Bush possibly offer to Iran on his one dimensional "confrontation with evil" trip? Nothng short of not bombing them. Because Bush Jr. doesn't negotiate with evil.

    Coercion is ultima ratio here. Under Bush Jr. it has become the rule in US foreign policy.

    Remember "Either you're with us or the terrorists"? The ideologues around Bush don't understand the nature of consensus and cooperation as a force multiplier - that the US is stronger and safer in concert with other nations rather then when trying to coerce them into cooperation against resistance. That is the simple secret behind the current global perception of the US as being the boneheaded bully. In this context I can only again recomment to read this great article: Power Rangers.
    Only when world accept the exercise of US power as legitimate they will support it, and that demands not coercion but consultation, diplomacy and cooperation.
    Regimes that rule by force alone crumble and eventually collapse - look at Iran and the Shah - and what happens then is always unpleasant. But that's what you get for running around with ideological blinkers.
     
  5. Gonzago Gems: 14/31
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    Well, if I can't claim emigrants, then surely I can claim immigrants...like these guys.

    And as one of those much-maligned 'devoted patriots,' I will say this in our defense: in a free society dissent is patriotic, and no one can bash America as well as Americans themselves.
     
  6. ejsmith Gems: 25/31
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    Just a note here:

    How good would Matrix have been without conspiracies? Deus Ex? George Orwell's 1984? 2001: A Space Odyssey? Baldur's Gate 2? JFK (the Oliver Stone version)?

    Indiana Jones? Star Wars?

    Yes, there are conspiracies in the world. It's a conspiracy to get a cruiseliner out of port, on schedule (you've no idea what kind of illegal stuff is involved with that last little requirement). It's a conspiracy to market chocolate bars (chocolate covered crickets).

    Japan has it's culture, and the way it likes to write stories. Hong Kong has it's culture. American culture thrives on conspiracies.

    Like drinking, the problem is when you let it control your entire reasoning...
     
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