Favorite class and noobish questions

Remove all ads!

Hmmm.... For some reason, I thought Haer Dalis' started with two proficiency points in short swords - which is why I assumed all Blades could do so. Maybe he's just special though - there are other examples of NPCs with odd proficiency distributions - like Coran having 3 proficiency points in long bows, even though as a F/T he should be limited to 2.

Looking ahead a way, but a bard with UAI CAN use helmets and still cast spells. UAI would probably be your first HLA anyway, but seeing as how it allows you to trade in an ioun stone for a helmet is all the more reason to do so.

I agree with that. The issue is two fold: 1) With a base two attacks per round, they attack faster than any melee weapon. (Best you can get with a melee weapon early on in the BG1 is 1.5.) 2) Even though melee weapons are capable of inflicting much more damage if a character has a significant strength bonus, since a lot of the stuff you run into has so few hitpoints, an arrow or two is enough to kill them. Once you start adding in Fire and Ice Arrows, you are effectively doubling your damage output, (1-6 physical, 1-6 fire or cold), and then you are close to matching melee damage on a per attack, never mind per round basis.

 

"(1-6 physical, 1-6 fire or cold)"
1-2 fire or cold, 1-3 acid. And there aren't too many of them.

I agree that damage output of a Half Ogre Kensai with a 2H sword is overkill early on, but are arrows so good really? If you need 2 shots to kill every 4th enemy then kills/round is the same. From my experience you 1 shot kills are less common, so H2H killing speed is better. Playing as archer might be slightly different. And obviously killing from safe distance has big advantages too. Up to now I played BGT once and the party was not bow-heavy, but I was dissatisfied with how they worked. Later I rarely used them at all.

 

There are an unlimited supply of fire arrows.

Missile weapons own BG1 -- as Aldeth said, not many enemies have enough hit points to take three or four arrows. A team with four missile weapons will fire six or seven times per round (perhaps up to ten), concentrating fire on one or two enemies at a time will kill two each round. It may take two or three rounds to engage and by then you've significantly reduced the number of your opponents.

Missile weapons are especially useful against spell casters (one hit per round prevents them from casting for that round).

 

The bandits in Peldvale carry around ice arrows. They are affected by the 1st level mage spell sleep, and a quick sojourn into Peldvale will give you a ton o' ice arrows. As for other places once money stops being an issue, the merchant outside of Durlag's Tower sells them, and an unlimited supply of any missile of your choosing is available in SS in the entrance area to Baldur's Gate (including exploding arrows - a couple of characters using them is tantamount to having a bazooka).

 

Actually it's only Haer'Daelis and I that have that honor...

 

I agree, Bsisi it is not possible to have four archers and be not satisfied(unless you get bored with them) in BG1 part of BGT, you get 8+ attacks per round and most of slower opponents like Ghasts/Ghouls/Bears/Ogres will never even reach you. And these are pain in the ass for low level characters even if they have already a decent AC/weapons etc; coz fighters have little HP and casters have very few spells. Bows make random encounters around 3432x times easier.

Plus Coran alone with Reflexive bows and enchanted/elemental arrows more often then not kills things like Ghast/Giant Spiders in 2 rounds he doesn't even need to escape because they are mostly dead before they get to him.. (+2dmg from bow +3thaco, +3thaco from 20dex and +3 dmg & +3thaco bonus from *** stars at bows - little cheater he is but it is GODLY early on imo), while even 5th/6th level fighters Kivan/Khalid still get occasionally stunned by some noob ghasts

edit 2mins later;
this is what I'm taking about idd your damage output is lower if you count it round by round but it is super convenient to shoot

 

Have to try a party with better archers at later date then. BTW 283 arrows...

---------- Added 0 hours, 5 minutes and 19 seconds later... ----------

ADDED:
Doesn't Coran get another +1 THAC0 and DMG for being an elf?

 

There is a mod that allows basically unlimited stacking of stackable items. I think it makes out at 999, and since there's never a reason you'd actually want more than 999 arrows, it is essentially an unlimited number. (I suppose theoretically, if you wanted to fill your entire inventory with arrows you could, although it would require in excess of 20,000 arrows.

It works for I think all stackable items - certainly all the missile items, but I think it also allows potion stacking beyond 5. I don't know what the maximum is there, although in that case 999 wouldn't be practical at all. Not only would you likely not be able to afford that many potions, your character wouldn't be able to move - they still weigh 1 pound each. You don't have that issue with arrows, because arrows don't have any weight for some reason.

 

idd; and it is exactly 9,999

It is from bg2tweakpack. Pretty damn awesome; there are some components BGT-Weidu/Tutu compatible packs that are really worth looking into...

aTweaks; http://readme.spellholdstudios.net/readme_atweaks.html
BG2Tweaks; http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2tweaks/index.php
BGTtweaks; http://readme.spellholdstudios.net/BGTTweakReadme.htm
d0tweaks; http://mods.pocketplane.net/D0Tweak_readme.htm

If you wish to try them always let the installer ask about each one and read - the descriptions on the links I posted. Be selective and careful some of them suck balls .

And if I may add one more piece of information nobody asked me to give 1pp paper dolls are a must; http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=81

check out xan's flaming sword; just beautiful ->

 

I agree, early on bows rock.
I just beat the tent in the bandit camp with an archer (lvl 1), Kivan (lvl 2), Imoen (lvl 2) and Korgan (lvl 1) with bad equipment.
It was hard and I had to drink a potion of speed because Korgan had like 15% chance to survive a single hit and so I had to give enemies as few chances to hit as possible.
After the fight everybody got a lvlup.
The plan is to add Coran and Quayle to the party and to do it ASAP. Too bad Quayle is available so late...it would be best to get him while being lvl 1-2, but I don't like avoiding lvlups and that would be needed. Oh, and Imoen with become a mage after lvl 4-5, to be decided.

 

How exactly do bards suck at low levels? He can use longbows, his THAC0 is only slightly worse off than a fighter's (both start with 20 THAC0 at level 1, the fighter only starts to pull ahead at around the 20k XP mark), he will have around the same number of spell slots as a non-specialist mage (at the same XP the Bard is level 5 with three 1st level spells and one 2nd level spell, while the mage is level 4 with three 1st level spells and two 2nd level spells), he has excellent lore progression and his song removes and makes the party immune to Fear (vanilla bard songs do this by default).
Bards need high stats, but since they have high minimum requirements for Int and Cha (I'm not sure if Dex is included - it probably is for half-elves) you can easily get a high stat roll with one. The way minimum stat requirement works, is if you had a roll that would give you 3 Int/Cha and high numbers in everything else, the game would replace that 3 Int/Cha with the minimum number a bard should have - somewhere around 10+. So if you would have 17Str/17Dex/16Con/3Int/17Wis/3Cha, you'd end up with 17Str/17Dex/16Con/10+Int/17Wis/10+Cha. Now if you plan to continue on to BG2, suddenly you only need high rolls in three particular stats - Dex, Con and Wis - and you only need 16 in Con. So there is absolutely no reason a PC bard should have low stats, unless you plan on roleplaying one.
A similar principle holds for cleric/rangers, which is why you'll rarely find one with low stat rolls.

In summary, if you have a bard in your party in BG1 you will have a strong ranged damager who has roughly the same amount of Sleep spells as a non-specialist wizard, free identifies and a counter to all those annoying bounty hunter wizards who use horror/fear.

Aldeth, I think you forgot about Remove Magic. I rarely have Dispel Magic memorized for anyone who can cast arcane spells.

Blades are very powerful in BG1. With Offensive spin they are 3 attacks per round/max damage per hit archers. Nowhere as powerful as kits like the Totemic Druid though, or the Assassin, the Bounty Hunter and the Wild Mage.

 

They suck because I don't know how to use them

 

Yes they are strong in BG1, I'm just going through it with Blade as my PC I like the versality, being able to use any wands, spell scrolls ranged and melee weapons alike, it is quite the fun

In theory ye, but in reality it can much worse. Fighters can specialize and have starting STR at 18/00 and such - which as a great boost to thaco. Also Bard can't use potions of strength and heroism. Offensive spin is a saver though it really rocks.

Me 8th level Blade;
STR; 18
baseThaco 16
thaco 12; (Halberd +1, gauntlets of weapon expertise, offensive spin +2)
number of attacks; 2 (1 = 1 from offensive spin + MAXED DMG!)
Halberds: *

Khalid 7th level fighter
STR 15
baseThaco 14
thaco 9 (Long Sword +2)
number of attacks; 2
Long Swords: ****

Coran 6th level fighter
DEX 20
basethaco; 15
thaco; 4 (long bow of marksmanship, arrow+1)
number of attacks; 2.5
Long Bows: ***

My Blade is far from being optimized though, i just play him as I fancy I could get much better thaco from other configuration(bows, using long swords etc)

Anyways point is starting thaco seems to be more of a specialization/inventory thing rather than thaco progression table.

Anyway Coran is just not fair, I could give him bracers of archery from Kivan and his thaco would drop to 2
Hmm Kivan with potion of Giant str goes to thaco 6 which is also decent

 

In practice bards can also freeze everything with wands of paralyzation, conjure fodder with wands of summoning and cast fireball at level 1 with the amulet of missiles, all while having decent ranged ability (I don't melee with bards much - yeah I got my pet peeves too so I can live with everyone else's ) and he can easily recharge these items by selling them to a fence and stealing them back.

They're a difficult class to love though, calling them item-dependent would be an understatement.

 

I had a much easier time with an inquisitor paladin. * in longbows and ** in two-handed sword and weapon style. Most things fell from arrows before they ever got close, and a simple web or stinking cloud would incapacitate most tough enemies and assassins. I got through the bandit camp almost unscathed by this strategy.

 

It's been a while. You'll have to refresh my memory on what things Remove Magic works on that Dispel Magic doesn't, but I will concede early on that it may be a superior choice.

I also agree that bards while extremely versatile, are not the greatest choice for the PC. As you say, they are a hard character to love. In the BG1 portion of the game, I think a bard is perfectly adequate as the party's only arcane caster. As already noted, they don't lag behind mages much in terms of number of spells, they can use all the wands you find/buy/steal, and have a much better choice of weapons than a mage. Garrick accompanies me in most parties in BG1, and when he does, I don't even HAVE a mage in the party.

I do agree that they are best played as missile characters. They can use longbows, and the longbow you get in the bandit camp is an excellent choice in BG1, unless of course you have a party where a lot of people use longbows. For example, if you have both Coran and Kivan in the party, you probably aren't giving that longbow to to a bard. In that case, the light crossbow of speed is an excellent alternative.

The only reason I can't give great points for a PC bard is that typically, I like my PC to the best character in the party at something, and other than identifying items, the bard isn't going to be the best character in ANYTHING, especially if you are playing through the whole series. You'll have a mage that is a better arcane caster, you'll have fighters that will be better an melee combat, and ranged characters that will be better at missile weapons. Even if you're soloing, a multi-class combination like a F/M/T is going to be a much more versatile character.

In summation, my feeling is that no party is going to be harmed by taking a bard along. However, it can also be said that taking a bard along is not essential to ANY party. They can help in melee, they can help in ranged, they can help in arcane spell casting, and no other character class can do all three of those things. That said, there is almost always a character that can do any one of those things individually better than a bard.

 

Idd, I have Kivan,Coran,Jaheira,Dynaheir and Khalid. I gave crossbow to myself (Blade). But bard already does good in melee(helps if your familiar has 24HP)- I mean I can take out most guys with offensive spin also I spam spells and wands all the time and it quite fun.

I'm not sure because 'm not done with my Blade yet.. but at least in theory Blade has a chance to be the best fighter if you give him powergaming stats and with some proper spells selection; - all the arcane buffs(stoneskin, mirror image,improved haste etc etc) + UAI (I think that will come really in handy)... seems like a worthy opponent for perhaps any NPC
F/M lay waste to all, but there are NPC from this class so it makes it a little bit more evened out for rest of the classes

 

To be sure, bards can do well in melee. As you say, they have access to defensive protections, and spells like Tenser's Transformation would help with them too. They just aren't going to get to the high number of attacks per round that you'd get from the fighter types.

Fighters/Paladins/Rangers get an extra 1/2 attack with weapon specialization, another 1/2 attack when they reach level 7, and another at level 13. The bard isn't getting any of them. That obviously works out to 1.5 additional attacks every round, meaning a bard isn't going to be able to keep up in terms of damage per round, and that's before we even start considering things like GWW. So for melee attacks, bards are viable, but not optimal.

 

The one thing Bards are really good at is versatility, which translates to being able to use all manner of magical items, potions, and equipment barred from other most classes. When combined with magic/combat/stealing this makes them a powerful, solid class. From BG1 to SoA you could say that they are militant sages who use music/poetry off-combat as an outlet for the incredible amount of lore they have accumulated, and who use any combinations of magic/weapons/items to bring down their enemies in combat. They are essentially using their very knowledge against their enemies, which fits the loremaster playstyle quite well.
Unfortunately this is taken away in ToB, as all rogues now get UAI and bardic combat/magic progression comes to almost a complete standstill. ToB brings them back to their roots (singing in combat) which is one of the things I truly find questionable about the D&D bard. I understand how singing before combat would help, or how the mere presence of the bard would inspire his/her party mates to do better in combat, or how the bards' understanding of the inner workings of the human psyche (essential for their line of work imo) would allow them to use battle chants (minor bonuses) in combat. But actually dropping your weapons/magic in favor of taking out your lute and singing in combat? Especially in battles like the Firkraag fight? That's like a loony tunes antic about to go horribly wrong.

 

Speaking of Firkraag, how do you kill that guy anyways? He always wipes the floor with me.