First Cause

Remove all ads!

The thing is though, that even if a religion like christianity or islam is true, living for an eternity in paradise might be nice, but it really serves no purpose other than to please oneself (a purpose which would not exist if the person self did not exist).

 

Back! Back! Your geting This is creation, not religion.

I have trouble with creation throries personally. If the universe is an infinate space, how can it have a start?

 

The surface of a sphere is an infinite space with no beginning and no end, yet it was manufactured in the sphere plant. Discuss.

 

That's what I argue. Also, if it is infinite, try finding the centre of said universe. Just the same as putting someone in a circle and telling them to sit in the corner.

 

on of the theories regarding that is that its infact not infinit, its just constantly expanding. if i remember corectly this theory also states that one day all galaxis will be pulled so far appart that space while seem empty, then another part of the theory says that the univers will pull together and create a new big bang, sort of restarting the univers.

 

Space could be infinite without being timeless. If the universe is both infinite in space and time it simply means it goes beyond space and time. Is not bound by space or time. Having written that I now have a headache.

 

If its just expanding, what happens when you get to the 'end' of space?

 

Nakia, if space is infinite it means it doesn't have to have a time based beginning. Certainly there could be one but I fail to understand 'how' there could be one. Because there'll always be the question 'What happened before that?' and we're back to square one again.

 

Point of fact: If the Universe is infinite, it can be no larger, or smaller then it is. It can't expand as it is already everything. Nore can it contract, as infinate space has nothing to contract too.

This also means that there can be no creation of the universe, and that it just is . Something of limited matter can't create something of infinite matter.

As you can see, I think about this alot.

 

The universe isnt infinite, it is bound by the same 4 dimensions as everything it contains. Once it has reached its expansion limitation it will start to contract slowly until it is 'infinitely' dense and compressed. After that the energy builds up again until it expands in a big bang of sorts. Thus the universe is born again, and after a few billion years another sentient species will sit down and ponder their origins, much the same as we do.

 

I believe the theory says it expands with the speed of ligth, so its probably not possible to reach the end. but honestly im not sure, its been a while since i read this.

that is just one of the theories, remember there is no certain fact in the origins of the univers.
if i remember my physics correct, which i dont , the einsteinien univers is infinit.
also the astro-physicians works with upto 9 different dimensions, so no the univers dosn't just work with the 4 we generaly operate with

 

The latest data suggests the universe's expansion is accelerating and, therefore, will eventually just become a huge, cold, dark, dead place.

 

The universe is observed to be expanding, and if it is expanding, then it isnt infinite because something that expands has to have limitations and boundries. If something was infinite, it would neither expand nor contract, as that would cause it to cease being infinite. If the universe is constantly expanding, then what is it expanding in to? Even if it was expanding in to 'nothing', 'nothing' is still 'something'. For the universe to be expanding in to something, it needs to have a clear boundry between itself and that 'something else'. Anything that has boundries cannot be infinite. The universe only 'appears' to be infinite because we are so insignificantly small in comparison.

 

The problem with that is you can't prove it. Nether can I, but that's not the point I was makeing.

Unless you live untill the end of existance (If it happens at all) you can't prove anything.

Very good point though Nataraja.

 

Not true. A line is made up of an infinite number of points but we could extend it into a longer line and it would still be made up of an infinite number of points. Why couldn't these same properties apply to the universe?

 

Ah, but a point is an infinitely small theoretical device, therefore an infinite number can exist in any finite space. The universe, however, is composed of finite matter. There are planets, stars, and galaxies. The line and the point is a very different object lesson.

Anyway, the way I see it, there are two possibilities:

1.)You can accept that everything has always been and has always been in motion. There may have been a point when everything was all in one point, but there was something else before that. The universe has always been, with the same total between matter and energy that there is today. It may have been in different forms than it is today, but it has always been. This is a dodgy belief at best, both physically and philosohically.

2.)You cannot accept that the universe has always been. By the laws of physics, then, there must have been a first mover. M-Theory has recently produced a proposal that may remove the divinity from this first mover. It has been proposed that all the universe as we know it, the time-space continuum, exists on a cosmic 'super string' that has wound itself together and exanded into a kind of disk (all in non-newtonian dimentions, mind you) and that there are others that have done the same, possibly an infinite number of them. Should two of these disks ever collide, there would be truely unimaginable amount of energy released into the matrix of each super string, possibly even enough to cause a 'big bang'. Of course, then you get into a whole different set of movers: where did these super strings come from, why are they moving, if one hit another, then the first must have been hit by something else beforehand, etc. All in all, you pretty much have to accept the idea that something we don't even come close to understanding yet, and maybe never will, started everything.

 

How is that dodgy? To believe that the universe is infinite in scope, never ending and permanent is far more sound than the alternative that is has an end. If there is an end, what is it? A gigantic wall? If that's the case then what is beyond it?

The very nature of the universe demands that it is infinite since there will always be something beyond any frontier we can imagine. "But what's beyond that?" By any scientific theory or law we have discovered the universe must be infinite since in order for it not to be there must be something that prevents it from being so and there is no such thing as absense of anything. It is not possible for there to be nothing somewhere yet for it to be impossible to put something there.

 

I just have to put this in here...just an idea that I had one day that Daie's babble brought beck in my mind in the RBP:

God created everything, and saw it was good. So everything came to be. If it wouldn't have been good, then god might have destroyed what was created, or choose not to create anything at all. So everything came into being if and only if it was good.

Now God is the ultimate good. God and good. Good and god. Good God, it's the same thing! And if everything that came into being did so because it was good, then everything that came into being did so because it was God. Everything is good. Everything is God. God is everything. Every single thing, because every single thing is good. God created everything. God created himself! Everything created itself!


And I'll be damned if this isn't sound theology

(edit: But please, I'm not trying to insult anyone with this...so my apologies if you find this offensive...)

[ February 26, 2007, 09:42: Message edited by: Iku-Turso ]

 

Could follow from this that we have a:

FUNDAMENTAL OXYMORON OF THE UNIVERSE: Any infinite process is finite; that is, any infinite process can be closed by a finite process to become a cycle.

Maybe the Universe is both infinite and finite and maybe, just maybe, there is a Divine Consciousness that created this whole thing. Maybe, just maybe, we are all manifestations of this Divine Consciousness.